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Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by boomlinde on Monday October 28, 2013 @04:13AM (#6625753)
> Nature is unfair. [...] The only thing society should do is ensure everyone has the same rights in regard to the Law no matter how rich, how poor, how different you may be.

Since you are so readily dismissing egalitarianism on the basis of being unnatural, I'm sure you have a great natural explanation for things like property rights and law.

For all I care, you can have libertarian or egalitarian ideals, but make no mistake in thinking that either of them are natural. If the point of a government or rule of law was to keep the natural order of things, we wouldn't need it at all. Not that I think that being unnatural is inherently bad, but don't try to put yourself on some sort of high ground by saying that your economical philosophy adheres to some sort of natural fact if it doesn't.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by ekianjo on Monday October 28, 2013 @04:40AM (#6625816)
I'm not just dismissive of Egalitarinism only because it's unnatural, but also because it goes against the individual's freedom in the end. There will be always be a point if you follow that line of thought where the power in place will crush your individual interests just for the sake of making your condition the same as everyone else (even on the basis of good intentions...). That, in itself, is against Human nature, where humans strive to build advantage for ourselves to improve our conditions and our odds to survival and to lead a better life. And don't tell me Humans don't do that, everyone wants their kids to be in good school and to get a better job than themselves. It's universal no matter from which culture you come from.

With Egalitarianism, you end up with policies where education is strictly controlled by one governmental body, and where Education goes to the lowest common denominator and becomes basically crap for everyone involved. You end up with public health services which are subpar, with waiting lines and mediocre equipment, because you want to treat everyone the same way while running on limited resources. And this has already happened in many countries in Europe where such policies were driven to the core of the governmental actions. In the end you create more inequalities because people who really have money have the possibility to leave the country and get better services elsewhere, while the middle-class and the poor are forever restrained to a diminished quality of life.

My point is that libertarian ideals are more respectful of individuals, because they allow for the flexibility of choosing your own course of action, maximizing your responsibility. In that sense they are closer to the natural order where one individual can create an advantage for themselves based on their action while living as part of a social group. I won't elaborate here on the principles and the philosophy behind it, it's a different subject altogether.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by pron on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:25AM (#6626148)
No one is trying to "make everyone the same as everyone else". Where did you get that? Even communism doesn't attempt do that (the communist ideal is that every individual should contribute their particular, unique talents to society, and the fruits of their labor will be shared by all).

> libertarian ideals are more respectful of individuals

Libertarianism, at least in its current incarnation in America, is the most hypocritical and abusive of all political ideologies, because it insists that "one governmental body" (as you call republican democracy) exert violence to uphold property rights. So the rich's source of power – their money – would be protected by governmental violence, while the poor cannot exert their own power – their numbers. This is hypocrisy, and is disrespectful to intelligence. What about this, though: remove all regulation and central control, but in order not to deprive the poor of their power while upholding the rich's, why not dismantle the police, too? Let the rich amass their wealth, and let the poor rob them. This is the only intellectually honest libertarianism: it's called anarchy, and personally, I like it. But barring that, if you want the government to protect your wealth, I think it's only fair to let the poor exert their power by forcing you to share some.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by Crake on Monday October 28, 2013 @05:09AM (#6625891)
>Education goes to the lowest common denominator and becomes basically crap for everyone involved

>health services which are subpar, with waiting lines and mediocre equipment

>the middle-class and the poor are forever restrained to a diminished quality of life

Are you sure you aren't talking about present day America? All of these things have become widespread here as a result of income inequality--something you've said you support.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by ekianjo on Monday October 28, 2013 @05:21AM (#6625932)
> Are you sure you aren't talking about present day America

I'm just talking about the world I know. I don't live in America. I can't say whether it's better or worse.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by vidarh on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:13AM (#6626111)
Most of Europe at least is doing far better than the US on most of these metrics, through socialized systems.
Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by ekianjo on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:56AM (#6626390)
Most of Europe is on the verge of bankruptcy as well. That shows how sustainable that is.
Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by Crake on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:33PM (#6630313)
Yeah, Germany is doing really awful these days. /s
Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by boomlinde on Monday October 28, 2013 @07:37AM (#6626332)
On the other hand, one might argue that egalitarianism is more respectful of individuals by systematically making sure that every individual has their basic needs provided for independent of a vast amount of possibly impairing conditions that might be totally out of their control.

You have to realize that while libertarianism might offer more choice to an already economically privileged person, it comes at an expense. When capital controls the most basic needs, your ability to choose what to eat today might come at the cost of someone else's choice of whether or not to eat at all.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by vidarh on Monday October 28, 2013 @06:10AM (#6626102)
> I'm not just dismissive of Egalitarinism only because it's unnatural, but also because it goes against the individual's freedom in the end.

Only if you define an individuals freedom as "freedom to deprive others of access to shared natural resources through violence" (I use the term violence since libertarians seems overly fond of referring to government interference as "violence"; except when it comes to enforcing private property). Hence Proudhon's "property is theft".

> With Egalitarianism, you end up with policies where education is strictly controlled by one governmental body

Why? Most egalitarian ideologies want to dismantle the state and introduce some form or other of direct democracy which would preclude strict government control of education or pretty much everything else.

Marx, for example, considered the only political purpose of the state to be the oppression of one class by another, and the goal of socialism to remove the class struggle by enacting policies that would remove the capitalist class, by turning them into workers. And the natural end-point, according to Marx, would be the "withering away of the state", as in a class-less society it would have no political purpose.

Anarchists argue for a more direct approach: Destroy the state outright.

> and where Education goes to the lowest common denominator and becomes basically crap for everyone involved.

Why? The original form of socialism was the idea of a meritocracy where a central goal would be to ensure people were given the opportunity to develop personally and promoted according to skill (read up on Saint Simon).

> You end up with public health services which are subpar, with waiting lines and mediocre equipment

This is contrary to real world experiences, where the universal healthcare systems for the most part are cheaper and better than mostly privatized systems like the US.

> And this has already happened in many countries in Europe where such policies were driven to the core of the governmental actions.

So this is why most European healthcare systems consistently rank better than the US system?

> My point is that libertarian ideals are more respectful of individuals

No, it is respectful of property owners. Libertarianism is what you get when you take anarchism or communism but don't follow the thinking through to its logical extension, but single out private property for special treatment.

Somehow, according to the libertarian, we need government enforcement of one persons "right" to deprive others of access to certain resources, while we don't need governments for pretty much everything else. The hypocrisy of this doesn't seem to phase anyone.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by mynewwork on Monday October 28, 2013 @10:37AM (#6627163)
I see a lot of attacks on any sort of libertarian (and for balance, many attacks at libertarian straw-men) on HN that use this same sort of inversion of force - the "stopping theft is violence" argument. Yours seems well-written enough that maybe you can answer one question I have about your viewpoint.

In your post, you refer to "shared natural resources" and then "deprive others of access to certain resources". Do you just mean "shared natural resources" as things like rivers, oceans, air, fossil fuels or does the argument really mean everything in existence because it presumably leveraged those things?

For instance, suppose I pick up a rock which everyone agrees has almost no value. I chip at it with another rock for a week until it now is in a shape of some useful tool, furniture or art. In your ideal system, who owns the value created through my labor? Do all people have equal claim to the item because it started out as a rock which was a shared resource? Do I own it? Something else?

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by dragonwriter on Monday October 28, 2013 @01:17PM (#6628242)
> Do you just mean "shared natural resources" as things like rivers, oceans, air, fossil fuels or does the argument really mean everything in existence because it presumably leveraged those things?

Generally, the theory behidn the argument you refer to is that everything in existence consists of two things: 1) Shared natural resources, and 2) The application of individual labor to shared natural resources.

So, everything that is constructed as "property" has at least has a component of shared natural resources being withheld from the commons, for which some duty is owed back to the commons. Even if the shared resource has little use value in its natural state, the act of denying others the right to apply their labor to it has a cost to the commons.

> For instance, suppose I pick up a rock which everyone agrees has almost no value. I chip at it with another rock for a week until it now is in a shape of some useful tool, furniture or art. In your ideal system, who owns the value created through my labor? Do all people have equal claim to the item because it started out as a rock which was a shared resource? Do I own it? Something else?

In any system which recognizes the existence of an extraction of resources from the commons as described previously, "ownership" trends to be qualified. Most likely, you would be (presuming that your extraction of the rock was within the rules governing the use of resources from the commons) the "owner" of the tool, but you would also owe a duty in exchange for both the permanent effects on the commons of altering the rock and the temporary effects of withholding the item from the commons. There are many ways this duty might manifest, but the most common would be various taxes on value or produced income.

Re:Cash to the poor: Giving money directly works surprisingl... by dublinben on Monday October 28, 2013 @11:56AM (#6627686)
A socialist would say that you have complete ownership over the product of your labor.