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Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by sudomal on Friday October 04, 2013 @05:42AM (#6494513)
Movies are probably the most easily justifiable for DRM. They aren't the sorts of 'products' that people watch over and over again (unless they get a cult following).

A single viewing of a movie reduces the value to a point where it may not be purchased. That's why distributors release them in as many stunted, protected, phases as possible - they want a return on their investment before it becomes relatively worthless.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by belorn on Friday October 04, 2013 @06:34AM (#6494629)
Media distributors have all the right to modify their works in any way they feel like. It is after all their property and they should enjoy the Property rights associated with it. If they want to encrypt it, scramble it, create CDs with strange sectors, they are completely free to do so.

My hardware however is not theirs, it's mine. I should have the same property rights to my property as they should have to theirs. Goods that still are controlled by the manufacturer has thus been designed to infringe on my property rights after ownership has been transfered. It is wrong, and should be illegal.

DRM is a technical design to corrupt property rights. The actual owner has none of the rights in "Bundle of rights"¹. One losses any of the control associated with property rights². It removes the concept of private property in ways we should never allow. It is simply a worse crime in history than eminent domain, mostly because everyone nowadays carries it in their pocket.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundle_of_rights

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_rights

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by antocv on Friday October 04, 2013 @07:25AM (#6494709)
Lets not forget the laws against reverse-engineering.

Lets not forget that people were seriously wondering if "jail-breaking" their iPhones is illegal or not. Thats how far it has gone. Its a disgrace to anything that a democratic liberal society is.

What is next, you are not allowed to run a certain program on your devices? Then it will be illegal to access certain web-sites with your devices. Then perhaps it will be illegal to have read a text on a print-out. Watch out, citizen, what you are writing is illegal, you are not allowed to do that!

Remember Eben Moglens talk on the war against general purpose computing.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by rquantz on Friday October 04, 2013 @08:17AM (#6494874)
It is already illegal to access certain websites. It's just that those websites are generally considered morally abhorrent. I'm not necessarily arguing against your point, except to say that slippery slopes are generally more complicated than the people warning against them think they are.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by pessimizer on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:46PM (#6496810)
If you're referring to "the children," I can't recall a case when someone asserting that we were starting down a slippery slope after some child-protection legislation had been passed has been wrong.

All of these national level DNS website blocks were sold as kiddie porn blocking.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by jdjb on Friday October 04, 2013 @11:54AM (#6496074)
"What is next, you are not allowed to run a certain program on your devices?"

That's what software licensing decides. I can have perfectly valid executable binaries on my computer but if I don't have a license to use them, then it's technically illegal to ./execute

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by antocv on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:15PM (#6496219)
Thats is true. Im no angel but I do not have pirated and unlicensed software on my computers, thats one of the reasons I only use Linux and pay for IntelliJ. At least with software we have an option.

I was saying that more in the context of oppressive regimes, sorry I mean safe democratic governments, that some programs are illegal to write.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by throwawaykf02 on Friday October 04, 2013 @09:03AM (#6495063)
If you (the collective "you", not you specifically) did not subvert their property rights through piracy, they would not feel the need to subvert yours through DRM.

It's a mistake to think that content creators are in the business of selling bits and bytes, and then complain about not being allowed to trade those bits and bytes as you would physical property.

The reality is right there in the name: it's called "intellectual" property. What you think you paid for, the disc or the bandwidth or the bits, is simply the medium used to deliver that which what you really paid for.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by npsimons on Friday October 04, 2013 @10:28AM (#6495540)
"Intellectual property" is weasel words made up by those who most benefit from it. There is no such thing. There are exclusive rights, given by We the People, and not for any other reason than to advance science and the useful arts. Anything else is selfish egotistical aggrandizing.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by dragonwriter on Friday October 04, 2013 @10:41AM (#6495614)
> "Intellectual property" is weasel words made up by those who most benefit from it. There is no such thing.

Yes, there is.

> There are exclusive rights, given by We the People, , and not for any other reason than to advance science and the useful arts.

No, they're given by Congress. The power to give those rights is given to Congress by the people via the Constitution, but Congress is the one giving the exclusive rights. And that limitation applies to the subset of intellectual property which is dependent on the copyright clause in the US, which isn't all of intellectual property.

But, in any case, even where that applies, it illustrates the existence of intellectual property, since an exclusive right with regard to something protected in law is what property is.

Real property is an exclusive right protected in law with respect to land. Tangible personal property is an exclusive right protected in law with respect to some tangible object not permanently affixed to the land. Intangible personal property (of which intellectual property is a subset) is an exclusive right protected in law that is not attached to land or to some tangible object.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by throwawaykf02 on Friday October 04, 2013 @04:04PM (#6497598)
So you mean if you make use of other's "intellectual property", you derive no benefit from it? If not, why do you make use of it? Maybe there's a reason we as a society have accepted the concept of Intellectual Property

Also: if you don't make use of it, why do you care what they do to protect it? Firefox and Chrome are open source, and as the refrain goes, you can always remove any DRM bits you don't like and use that.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by philwelch on Saturday October 05, 2013 @05:28PM (#6502142)
All property rights are exclusive rights granted by law for the public good.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by DanBC on Friday October 04, 2013 @05:55AM (#6494541)
> Movies are probably the most easily justifiable for DRM. They aren't the sorts of 'products' that people watch over and over again (unless they get a cult following).

Children watch movies VERY MANY TIMES. They also manage to destroy the physical media.

I'm not sure what the law is about making a backup of the disc (is backup exempted, or am I circumventing an effective copyright measure?) but morally I think it's okay to make a back up of a DVD.

Having said that, I'm on my 3rd DVD of Despicable Me.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by chris_wot on Friday October 04, 2013 @08:03AM (#6494827)
> Children watch movies VERY MANY TIMES. They also manage to destroy the physical media.

100% agreed and can personally attest to that!!

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by menubar on Friday October 04, 2013 @08:30AM (#6494925)
These kids are destroying property that does not belong to them. This is a felony punishable by prison time and hard labor. You'd better turn them in at the nearest police station before Hollywood finds out and sends their hired thugs after you.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by chris_wot on Friday October 04, 2013 @08:33AM (#6494930)
Believe me, there are some days I'm sorely tempted!
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by aaronem on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:19PM (#6496634)
What? I mean, full marks for hyperbole, but even DIVX never tried to claim the buyer didn't own the physical medium. It's the ownership of the bits stored thereon that's under discussion.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by PeterisP on Friday October 04, 2013 @10:18AM (#6495484)
Making backups as such is legal under general global copyright laws. In USA however, if a content seller makes it very difficult to make a backup, then distributing devices to circumvent that may be illegal under DMCA.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by ensignavenger on Friday October 04, 2013 @06:29PM (#6498443)
Are they scratching the disks to cause the damage- or are they actually wearing the disks out??? (Just curious- I agree 100% that you should have the right to make a backup of a DVD in case it gets destroyed.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by antocv on Friday October 04, 2013 @07:21AM (#6494703)
So is it "a viewing" that is being sold? Are they buying my eyes, am I selling? How much do other companies pay for my eyes to see their shit advertisement even though Im not selling? And I dont get or see any of that money.

I already payed for the bandwidth to see the movie, it was already on my private property, it is my right to save it and to re-sell it or to mix it with other movies. But no, the intellectual right of the creator supersedes private property, and even my own intellectual creativity - no remixing.

Send intellectual property and rights to the trashcan, write into the constitution that anything written and created is available for remixing and redistribution by any means.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by br78 on Friday October 04, 2013 @11:02AM (#6495730)
You're allowed to remix it as much as you like in your own home for your own amusement, the problem comes when you publicly release that remix.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by tesseractive on Friday October 04, 2013 @02:25PM (#6497043)
Though enforcement is a gray area as long as it's a noncommercial release and is not a realistic substitute for purchasing the original copyrighted content. Even the RIAA never tried to sue DJs releasing free online mixes they made.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by pessimizer on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:49PM (#6496822)
Not really. Once you subvert the DRM module, you've already broken the law.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by stonith on Friday October 04, 2013 @06:09AM (#6494566)
I dislike DRM in all of its forms, and hope that Mozilla does take a stance against having it in FF, but I agree with this sentiment.

I don't want to own a movie, I want to watch it. I don't want to own music, I want to listen to it.

What I don't agree with is the assumption from content producers that DRM is particularly useful. If the content is displayed on a screen or played out speakers, DRM isn't going to work.

Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by SeanDav on Friday October 04, 2013 @06:24AM (#6494606)
Except if you don't own it you may be told you can't watch the film with more than 2 friends or on Friday evenings or Christmas Eve. You may be told you cannot listen to your music if travelling to another country, or copy it to your new $10,000 hi-fi so you can really enjoy it.
Re:Mozilla bug 923590: Pledge never to implement HTML5 DRM by shmerl on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:00PM (#6496118)
Nothing is justifiable for DRM. Even if you don't watch movies over and over again, you can watch them once in a while. Good movies have good replay value. And bad movies won't get any more sales, just because they'll use DRM for some reason.