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Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by chiph on Thursday October 03, 2013 @10:55PM (#6493463)
I can't help but wonder how effective those memos would have been if he'd been more direct, rather than use manager-speak. Passive voice just doesn't work when you want to get people to take action.

Certain of our competitors' products and their rapid advancement and refinement of new usage scenarios have been quite noteworthy

could have been:

Our competitors are out-innovating us, and we're losing to them. I hate to lose and you should hate being losers too. So this is what we're going to do.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by potatolicious on Friday October 04, 2013 @03:15AM (#6494136)
Typical at large, highly-corporate places I'm afraid.

I recall during one of my first internships (at Siemens, not Microsoft) my first task was to go over test results of electric motors being developed. I drafted an email with my results and fired it off to a number of people.

A short while later I was ushered off by one of the senior project managers. "Why'd you write that email?" "Um...?" "You don't call these things PROBLEMS, you call them ISSUES. Do you understand? You call them problems, people are going to think there are problems!"

And that was the moment I decided I wanted nothing to do with traditional engineering and the automative industry... unfortunately I had another 3.99 months to go on that internship at that point. The rest of the internship didn't go any better, and is still a massive source of antipatterns I still draw from today.

Funny note, those "issues" ended up costing the company millions in a product recall. Maybe they should've been called "problems" instead ;)

The neutering of language into corporate-speak is still one of the biggest red flags I look for when interviewing...

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by raverbashing on Friday October 04, 2013 @09:30AM (#6495205)
"The rest of the internship didn't go any better, and is still a massive source of antipatterns I still draw from today"

Yes, my exact experiences with that company. Only it lasted a lot more time, at different stints. Sigh.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by Danieru on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:20PM (#6493541)
I spent the summer at MS on an internship and I think I can say with confidence that calling things as they are is just not something one does at Microsoft. Will it could be the intern cocoon I also observed non-intern targeted communications that showed the same behaviour.

Once I spent time with people they got more friendly and open. Yet if you do get a good conversation going you can expect the managers at the table to hang out of it. The managers always watch their words. Likewise if you talk to a random person in the cafeteria they will toe the party line.

In contrast one is safe to criticize Microsoft products provided they have been dropped or replaced. No love is shown for Windows Mobile or the Kin.

When you do criticize current practices/products in public there was an unwritten rule that one should always reference the competition. No one calls it out in words like "We can do better!", "This is user hostile!", "We're being to greedy by doing X!". Instead it is "We should focus on X because our competitor is going well on Y". Also "competitor" is always left non-specific, just like it is in your quote.

As such considering Ray Ozzie's former high org chart position I must congratulate him on saying as much as he did.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by asveikau on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:38AM (#6493738)
I was an FTE at MSFT for a few years. I disagree with this assessment. In many contexts Microsoft has a culture of tearing apart other people's ideas, I suspect rooted in the legendary BillG rants ("stupidest idea I've ever heard", etc.) and the overly internally-competitive culture. Additionally, rank and file routinely complain about Microsoft being bad at marketing, Microsoft being bad at consumer messaging, Microsoft building products for the Redmond bubble and not for humans, etc. etc., and the internal dogfood aliases are full of this stuff as are hallway and lunchtime discussions in many places. Not to mention all those people carrying iPhones who used to joke that it was "competitive research".

That's not to say that there aren't koolaid drinkers and that it won't ever be politically unwise to directly criticize your colleagues... But it's a diverse place, and, in my experience, cynicism exists in a big way there.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by kevin_rubyhouse on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:40AM (#6493903)
I agree. I've been working in Windows Embedded for a couple years now, and I work with some people in management not afraid to speak their minds to others on the team. Sometimes the way they react or phrase things helps me think from their vantage points.

Interns do seem to be treated differently though. Not many criticisms are voiced around them.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by kabdib on Friday October 04, 2013 @09:02AM (#6495055)
The /good/ managers called things "problems" and knew how to manage people well.

The /bad/ managers never wanted confrontation, were afraid to raise up problems, were autocratic to their reports and nebbishes to their own managers, and never tried to grow their people.

There are managers I regret leaving behind, and managers who I was very happy to see the back of.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by seanmcdirmid on Friday October 04, 2013 @03:43AM (#6494219)
Interns don't have access to litebulb, I think.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by Danieru on Friday October 04, 2013 @09:44AM (#6495290)
Might be true. I had access to the internal social network but I did not try subscribing to mailing lists.

Its good to hear not everyone got the same impression as me. On the other hand they may have been observing more private conversations than I am referring to. Still I cannot at all claim more experience than former full timers.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by r0h1n on Friday October 04, 2013 @03:51AM (#6494245)
From experience I can say that contrarian leaders in large & established companies walk the fine line between pushing for change versus self-preservation. There is an enormous amount of pressure/politics/resistance they face from the "old guard".

If they are too blunt and direct in suggesting change, their established rivals paint them out as someone who "does not understand or value the organization's history", or "does not get the culture" etc.

The CEO often prefers to sit on the fence, without putting his/her entire weight behind the contrarian. Because s/he does not (or cannot) risk antagonizing the majority of the old guard. In the absence of a CEO's or board's full support, the contrarians start getting stymied in their plans as time goes on. Their words become less sharper, their plans less disruptive and their canvas much less "blue sky". Till comes a time when they prefer to just leave rather than tilt at windmills.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by mathattack on Friday October 04, 2013 @09:36AM (#6495244)
I think he was trying to get the message across without getting himself fired - at least in the first note. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference.

IMHO - Microsoft could have gone too ways. They could have gone full cash-cow, returned even more money to shareholders, and watched the franchise slowly shrink. (The IBM model, who seem to buy more shares back every year) Or they could have gone full-on towards R&D and killing their sacred cow with a better push into the post-PC world. In muddling between the two they did the worse of both worlds: they missed a tech wave, and punished their shareholders.

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by pinaceae on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:17PM (#6493535)
yet another memo. whenever you see such memos leaking, you know the company is in a bad shape. RIM, Nokia, MS - lots of famous memos, full of corporate speak and calls to action to do something with services, quality, paradigms and fundamental values of tectonic shifts.

effective leaders deliver products that customers buy. ineffective ones write memos to other "leaders".

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by sremani on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:00AM (#6493643)
Microsoft does deliver products just because they got flak from Apple fanboy tech- press. Windows 8 is over 110 Million installs, I am not sure what other product from Microsoft you are talking about SharePoint, SQL Server, C# 5.0 .. yes, when Google is spaming Y-combinatory with daily Go post, Microsoft is actually developing a language that is 10 years and evolving.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by andrewflnr on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:34AM (#6493888)
Go actually gets a lot more flak here than C#, at least in my experience. The comments on Go are pretty polarized: a lot of people love it, but a lot of others hate it for not incorporating modern PL theory or having a weird GC. When C# /.NET is mentioned, it's almost always positively, as a remarkably well-designed system, what Java should have been. It's just not as sexy as Go or Node or (to some) Haskell. I want to say it's almost invisible by virtue of simple competence, but that might be going too far.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by boyter on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:17AM (#6493683)
I wish Microsoft would go back to their roots. That is developing software that runs on all platforms.

I think many would love to have Office available on all platforms.

Personally I would be thrilled to write C# with first class support on Linux (Mono is not close to having this yet).

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by teh_klev on Friday October 04, 2013 @07:04AM (#6494679)
I wish they'd write an official set of native MS SQL drivers for Linux, like they did with the PHP SQL drivers on Windows. Yes I know there's FreeTDS, unixODBC etc, but the level of faff getting it to work just so never fills me with confidence.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by xradionut on Friday October 04, 2013 @08:19AM (#6494882)
I'm happy that Linux doesn't have MS SQL drivers. The increasing cost of SQL Server licensing is the driving force towards PostgreSQL for many of our projects. The larger clients can afford the costs and seem to enjoy being treated as cash cows by Redmond.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by aespinoza on Friday October 04, 2013 @12:43AM (#6493748)
And with Xamarin moving fully to Mac, Linux matters less for mono.
Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by pinaceae on Friday October 04, 2013 @11:04AM (#6495742)
win8 has currently a lower adoption rate than vista. winrt is so great no one wants to build hardware for it anymore.

the components you cite, sharepoint, sql server, are bought by IT departments that went with windows. once you switch to linux you do not have access to those tools, regardless of their greatness. and yeah, most of those tools are bundled in CALs anyhow, Sharepoint without SQL server?

Re:Rethinking Ray Ozzie by randomfool on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:28AM (#6493871)
Great ideas at any large org are worthless if you cannot clearly communicate and sell them. This is where Ozzie struggled at Microsoft.

It was a shame that they could not leverage him more effectively as I really think he had clear vision about where things were going.