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Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by eli on Thursday October 03, 2013 @10:37AM (#6489168)
Sorry, but I don't get this mindset. It would have been better to give them nothing rather than a "cheap" gift?

If you want to get paid market rate for the value you provide as a security researcher, then stop doing work on spec and just hoping that someone compensates you for it.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by kens on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:22AM (#6489518)
There's a big discussion of this in the book "Predictably Irrational", chapter 4: "Why we are happy to do things, but not when we are paid to do them". It explains that there are two worlds: The first is "social norms", which is community based. This is where you have friends over for dinner, help someone move a couch, and other friendly things. The other world is "market norms", where things are transaction based with something exchanged for something of equal value (normally, but not always money).

The problem is when the worlds of social norms and market norms cross. The book gives the example of Thanksgiving dinner, and what would happen if you offered your mother-in-law a couple hundred dollars to pay for the meal at the end. Another example is sex: paying for sex makes it a very different situation. (Also note the difference between giving someone flowers on a date and giving someone cash.)

The book describes a research experiment, where participants were paid $5, 50 cents, or nothing to perform a short task of sorting shapes. The people paid $5 sorted 50% more shapes than the people paid less (since they were more motivated), but the people paid nothing did the most of all since they were motivated by helping out the researchers.

This ties in with intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation - if you're getting paid, it's extrinsic motivation, and then you're motivated by whether you're getting your money's worth.

(There's a lot more, but I don't have time to get into it, so check out the book.)

The point is, that if people report bugs for free, it's part of the social norms world, where they are keeping the world safe, making it a better place, etc. If they are getting paid, it's part of the market norms world, and they expect to get paid what the bug is worth. With Yahoo, the lines got crossed: giving a T-shirt is generally part of the social norms world, but giving a $12 gift certificate crosses over into the market norms world, and $12 is insultingly low. This is why it would have been better for Yahoo to give nothing.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by DanielStraight on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:41AM (#6489704)
Exactly. This guy accidentally crossed into market norms by doing something that seemed completely reasonable at the time.

Imagine you ask a friend over to help fix your car in exchange for beer. This would clearly not be interpreted as payment, but as a way of saying thanks. Now suppose it turns out they generally like beer but hate the particular kind you purchased, so you feel bad and give them $10 to buy themselves a beer they like. Suddenly, thinking you were doing something nice, you've crossed into market norms.

This, as far as I can tell, is basically what happened.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by ronaldx on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:15AM (#6489463)
> It would have been better to give them nothing rather than a "cheap" gift?

Yes. Giving nothing doesn't give any indication of value - maybe the work is very highly valued but it's not Yahoo's policy to compensate. Fair enough.

Giving a cheap gift attaches a very particular value.

There is a body of research on this, e.g. http://ideas.repec.org/p/zur/iewwpx/007.html

"rewards undermine the intrinsic motivation of volunteers." "a large literature in social psychology [emphasizes] that external rewards can undermine the intrinsic motivation for an activity"

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by bryanlarsen on Thursday October 03, 2013 @10:51AM (#6489264)
"Sorry, but I don't get this mindset. It would have been better to give them nothing rather than a "cheap" gift?"

Standard practice to deliberately insult a waitress is to leave a short tip. That's more insulting than leaving nothing.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by zequel on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:10AM (#6489434)
Probably related to the fact that the waitress can justify no tip with the thought "they might have forgotten to leave one". A short tip sends a message.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by nmcfarl on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:21AM (#6489505)
Which is a good point - as it gives illustration to mikeash's point in this same thread. This doesn’t make logical sense at all - but there are practices based on it.

And in this case both the "a token of our appreciation" and "short tip" practices could been "meant", and were as a matter of fact taken as "meant" by the sender and receiver respectively.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by Suitov on Friday October 04, 2013 @01:22PM (#6496653)
Oh hell, is it? Quite often I'm short on cash and just tip with the change I have - not tiny-denomination coins, I hasten to add, but 50ps/£1s. Bugger.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by wpietri on Thursday October 03, 2013 @12:00PM (#6489855)
I was once at a busy bar. The guy in front of me, his order came to $9.75. He gave the bartender $10; she gave him a quarter back as she delivered the last of his drinks.

He tried to leave the $0.25 as a tip. She said, "Oh, no, you must need this," and gave it back to him. Her clear view was that no tip was better than $0.25. I congratulated her, and made up for his idiocy with my tip.

If you don't tip at all, you're either clueless or an asshole. Tipping a quarter is more insulting: you're acknowledging the need to tip, but making it clear you don't think much of the bartender.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by danielweber on Thursday October 03, 2013 @01:20PM (#6490412)
I would think he avoided the concept of paying them by giving a gift instead, which sidesteps the concept of "pay" the same way an honorarium[1] would.

I was at a company where someone reported a security problem to the support team. I didn't quite believe it, but they got me on the phone, and within 10 seconds the guy had said the right words to tell me he had found something. So we fixed it.

What then? The company had no formal bounty system in place. I said we should send him something, so I got him an Amazon gift card and sent it to him along with a letter of thanks.

He said thank you back to us.

It all seemed good, but maybe it was just luck of the draw that an Internet mob didn't show up for me the next day.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorarium

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by yogo on Thursday October 03, 2013 @10:51AM (#6489269)
Yahoo is free to do whatever they want. I think that's obvious. My opinion from the sidelines reflects what I think it looks like. Certain things become the norm, for e.g. someone finds $100K and returns it, the norm is to pay them a nice reward for doing so. There is absolutely no agreement or law in place that says they have to get anything in return. In fact, neither I nor most people I know expect anything in return for doing the right thing. What would your reaction be if the finder received nothing?

Just in case you want to know where I stand: if I find $100K in cash and there is no way to trace it back to me I'm not returning it. However, that is different to finding a bug and selling it for monetary gain.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by mikeash on Thursday October 03, 2013 @10:53AM (#6489285)
> It would have been better to give them nothing rather than a "cheap" gift?

YES!

There seem to be two camps here, neither of which can even fathom the other's position.

On your side, we have people who do a purely logical comparison that non-zero is greater than zero, so this is better.

On my side, we have people who inherently separate tasks done for free for fun or just to be nice, from tasks done for money. For these people, getting paid a pittance is a grave insult, while not getting paid at all (when nothing is owed) is just fine.

I don't really know how to explain it any further. I think the people in your camp just need to understand that the other camp exists and contains a lot of people, and that regardless of logic, giving someone a $12.50 gift card is a massive insult, far worse than giving them nothing. You don't have to understand why, but you have to know that this is how it is for a lot of people.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by javajosh on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:16AM (#6489474)
You are right there are two views, but they are reconcilable.

I think the problem mostly lies in conflating "token of gratitude" with "gratitude". The token is a cheap thing, and has some small monetary value. The gratitude itself is a much more valuable thing, for both the giver and the receiver. Reporters are motivated by doing the right thing, and perhaps getting some recognition for their contribution. The recognition has two parts: recognizing cleverness (you caught something others missed), and recognizing honor (doing the "right thing", reporting it to the affected party rather than exploiting it yourself).

You can't put a price on cleverness and honor. And if you try to, and you come up with $12.50, then you're an idiot. The only thing you can do is recognize it, and show gratitude for the help.

What the OP tried to do was show gratitude and recognition with a token, and some recipients confused the token for the gratitude. It doesn't sound to me like the giver was confused! E.g. he wasn't saying "Here, let me pay you for your time, eliminating the need for us to recognize your cleverness and honor for the cost of a T-shirt." Now you might say that the token was poorly chosen: there is a reason people invented trophies, items that are totally worthless other than as tokens of accomplishment. It's because the recipient will NEVER confuse a trophy for the price of the accomplishment behind it.

Personally, I think a cool little useless trophy would have worked better, and certainly no gift certificates! Being named and honored somewhere on the Yahoo website would be great. Giving a small cash prize, like $1000, would be a classy move.

The bottom-line remains: there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the T-shirt-as-trophy, apart from the (apparent) risk of recipients confusing it for T-shirt-as-payment.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by mikeash on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:25AM (#6489536)
I think you're absolutely right. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with giving a t-shirt, or even a gift card for a t-shirt, if it's properly communicated. But it has to explicitly be something like, "Thanks so much for this. I'm terribly sorry that we can't give you a proper reward, much though I'd like to. As a small token of my appreciation, I hope you'll accept a t-shirt as my way of saying thanks. Since I don't know your size, here's a gift card you can use to obtain whatever size and style you prefer." If it had been done like this, I think it would have gone over fine. There might be some grumbling about how a large company "should" have a bug bounty program, but not the sort of attitude we've seen.

As best I can tell, the gift card was offered without comment. And while the intentions were good, the lack of such a message meant that it was taken badly.

I guess the lesson is, if you're offering only a token of appreciation, make sure the recipient knows you know it's only a token.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by yogo on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:00AM (#6489346)
I wish a sociologist or anthropologist would comment and explain formally what this is but I'm thinking it is something along the lines of a thank you or appreciation not being quantifiable. Where as putting money (or something quantifiable) on the table communicates some sort of value.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by chc on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:40AM (#6489687)
I'm not a sociologist, but I've had a longstanding interest in the origin of manners, so I've read a bit on this. The problem here is that putting a number on something invites comparisons. We almost can't help comparing numbers. If my friend gets a number and I get a "You are awesome! Thank you so much!" I can't easily compare those because they are unlike each other. But when my friend gets a 500 and I get a 12.5, it is obvious to everyone that the number I got is so much lower, it's embarrassing. That guy's number is way bigger than mine.

Basically, no monetary reward is necessarily expected here. But once you give one, it is a faux pas to give one that looks small in comparison to what is considered the "norm." We even have common insults reflecting this fact, where bragging about something I impressive will invite comments like, "Wow, here is a shiny nickel." The impromptu offer of a clearly paltry reward is understood as a slight.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by asmithmd1 on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:13AM (#6489451)
Yahoo "owed him one" when he reported the vulerabilty.

When they traded a shirt for the report Yahoo was implying that they no longer owed him anything, it was a fair barter

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by mikeash on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:04AM (#6489372)
Yeah, I'd like a better explanation myself. I feel it, but I can't really explain why.

It seems like there are just two distinct modes. When you do something for free, you're basically doing a favor, and you get pleasure from being altruistic. Once you get paid, it's now an exchange of value, not altruism, so you only get pleasure from being paid. If the pay is small, you'll feel upset because your end of the bargain is based entirely on that, while if you're doing it for free, you switch over.

I could be full of it....

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by turtle4 on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:25AM (#6489542)
If nothing is given, you assume the first party is indicating that their thanks/recognition is enough.

If something is given, then they are acknowledging that their thanks/recognition is not enough, but that $x monetary value makes up the difference.

Some people take it as an insult that if thanks isn't enough, they can be 'bought' for $x, where $x is $12.50, or whatever. The reasoning is basically that if you are saying the time taken to reproduce and report the issue is important enough to compensate, you should probably compensate commensurate with what they would expect to make for their time/expertise.

I think most people who report these things do so because they want to improve things, not for the money, so most probably fall into the first camp, but I can understand where the second camp is coming from.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by eli on Thursday October 03, 2013 @01:15PM (#6490377)
No, I get what you're saying. But they originally DID do this task for free. The work they did was already done regardless of what Yahoo did with their report next. If they were expecting or counting on a charity gift from Yahoo, that seems like a mistake.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by jack-r-abbit on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:18AM (#6489484)
> separate tasks done for free for fun or just to be nice, from tasks done for money

Sure. But given the lack of a formal bounty program at Yahoo!, it was a poor choice to pick them as a place for "tasks done for money"

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by mikeash on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:26AM (#6489547)
They didn't necessarily pick that, though. When you submit a vulnerability to a company that doesn't have such a program in place, it is their choice as to whether that falls into the "free" or "paid" category.

Yahoo's reaction put it into the "paid" category, and then paid an insultingly low amount. That was their error. A different reaction, even just different wording when sending the gift card, could have put it into the "free" category.

Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by jack-r-abbit on Thursday October 03, 2013 @11:36AM (#6489660)
You can see it as an insultingly low payment or as a bigger than usual thank you. If you expected nothing, the shirt is a pretty decent thank you. If you expected to be paid, the shirt is an insult. Clearly the people who bitched about the shirt expected to get paid. So they had already put their work in the "paid" category and then complained when the pay was low. It sounds like a lot of other people didn't expect anything and put their work in the "free" category and were (at least a little) pleased to get an unexpected thank you.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by tomjen3 on Thursday October 03, 2013 @02:06PM (#6490746)
You are misunderstanding things. A dollar amount automatically puts it into the paid category, because it is comparable.
Re:So I’m the guy who sent the t-shirt out as a thank you by jack-r-abbit on Thursday October 03, 2013 @02:46PM (#6491032)
You are misunderstanding things. It used to just be an actual t-shirt. But people who already had a t-shirt said they didn't need another one. So an equivalent amount of store credit was given to get something other than a t-shirt. I guess he could have just offered for them to pick from a few different schwag items. Any physical item as a thank you is going to have some sort of dollar value... but I still don't think that automatically puts it into the paid category.