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Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by rhelmer on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:35AM (#6474062)
Not sure who counts as "military industrial complex", but the Pentagon has already said that troops will not be paid: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gC5rwPOPz...
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by chaz on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:40AM (#6474086)
Hours before the shutdown, Obama signed a bill that granted an exception to the military, ensuring it will continue to operate and troops will be paid: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/government-shutdown-se...
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:46AM (#6474117)
Which is also in the article:

>But 1.4 million uniformed members of the military will stay on the job and will be paid, thanks to a last-minute bill unanimously passed by both houses and signed by Obama on Monday night.

Which goes to show that no matter how dysfunctional our government becomes it will go to any length to ensure that it's still capable of killing lots of people.

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by tedunangst on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @01:13AM (#6474218)
Someone else might rephrase that as "no matter how dysfunctional our government becomes it will go to any length to ensure that those people who are asked to die in its name still receive the token remuneration promised them."
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @01:22AM (#6474264)
"...and thus can continue being asked to die in its name."
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by twoodfin on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:41AM (#6474094)
Not so: The House, Senate and President got a military pay bill in under the wire.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/government-shutdown-se...

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by selmnoo on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:37AM (#6474070)
It is worth noting, incidentally, that the DoD is the largest employer in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:40AM (#6474088)
Which I think says something very sad about our national priorities.
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by ars on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:47AM (#6474121)
That we prioritize jobs?

The DOD is a jobs program, with a side benefit of being a military. But mainly it's a jobs program that also does basic research and engineering.

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:58AM (#6474159)
All the other jobs being furloughed are also jobs. Why not prioritize them instead?

It seems crazy to say, "yeah, those people we hired because we actually want them to work should go unpaid first, and the people we hired just as a jobs program should be kept hell or high water."

Edit: s/laid off/go unpaid

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by ars on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @02:22AM (#6474463)
I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about the DOD being the largest employer, and our priorities about it existing.

As for funding it, it's just because it was an easy vote, not because of priorities.

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @02:40AM (#6474530)
Er, right. Reading back through the thread, I can see how that was confusing. My fault.

As you've now surmised, I was just complaining about the military's special status vis-a-vis the shutdown, for which "that's a lot of jobs!" is inapposite. But while we're on it, I guess I should say this: I'm for the government providing jobs, but I am against them being in the military, and strongly believe they should be employed more productively and less violently. I can think of a lot of things a make-work program could fix but I can't think of anyone I want to kill.

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by ars on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @03:39AM (#6474759)
These days the military is violent very very rarely. And it could be just as violent even if it's was a 1/10 of the current size.

Most of the money goes toward hardware, which means engineers, construction, and the like. And toward eduction - of all sorts, from simply paying tuition to basic training to self discipline.

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by icambron on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @04:46AM (#6474953)
> And it could be just as violent even if it's was a 1/10 of the current size.

While the number of people actively shooting other people is in relative terms small, to the extent it does happen, it happens because we have a large enough force to occupy other countries and make the absolute numbers pretty high. For example, almost half the active military from 2002-2005 was at one point deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan [1]. We just couldn't have had those wars without 1/10th the military without significantly changing how we wage war. At some level, it's possible that we could be equally violent with a tiny fraction of the military manpower and budget, and the same is true of, say, the Netherlands. But it would be wildly impractical, so in practice countries like the Netherlands don't do it. We're violent because our budget makes being violent easy for us.

> Most of the money goes toward hardware, which means engineers, construction, and the like

I need to be convinced of two things there. First, that it's actually true. The two largest categories (which together make up a solid majority) are "Operations and maintenance" and "Military personnel" [2]. I don't understand what's in that first category, but since there are separate categories for procurement, R&D, and construction, it's not those (education does presumably fall under "military personnel"). (In general, I've always found good numbers on exactly how the military spends its money hard to come by.)

And second, I'm very skeptical that as far as job programs go, the military is a very good one compared to other ways of spending that money. To begin with, the military doesn't create nearly as many useful things. Designing and building bombers might have ancillary positive effects in terms of R&D and employment, but the bombers themselves are only useful for bombing, and mostly just sit around and being ready to bomb things. But what if we made really fancy civilian aircraft instead? It would have those effects and we'd end up with all these really useful planes! Similarly, a lot of the infrastructure the military builds is in far-away countries, or is of transient or at least limited use. Soldiers are getting paid and engineers are building, but they're not really adding much value. Compare that to building bridges or researching solar panel technology.

Next, the primary reason for having make-work programs is that the people receiving all the money are also consumers, meaning the money is fed back into the economy and stimulating further economic activity. The military is terrible at that because a lot of the money is actually spent overseas developing other country's economies.

All of that is to say: assuming we want to spend a few billion dollars on construction, training, R&D, and personnel, why do we prefer to spend through the military instead through other stuff? My guess is that we do it that way because we've always done it that way, and not because it's optimal or even rational.

[1] http://usmilitary.about.com/od/terrorism/a/deploymentrates.h... [2] http://medillonthehill.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DOD-Bu...

Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by wavesounds on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:40AM (#6474085)
I think he means the contracts are still in place for building more weapons and those weapons will continue being used despite the fact that soldiers and their families will not be receiving their pay.
Re:Federal Government Begins First Shutdown In 17 Years by drill_sarge on Tuesday October 01, 2013 @12:43AM (#6474103)
bill was passed right before to pay them. I don't think they want to risk not to pay the biggest police/military complex ever.