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Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by stefantalpalaru on Monday September 09, 2013 @09:42PM (#6357531)
It is about the student's experience reflected in the eyes of a mother. Parents are not known for their objectivity when it comes to children, but in this case the (rather far fetched) idea that the evil boys and their sandwich jokes made her daughter dislike programming found fertile ground in the whole "designated victim" narrative of women in online environments.

There is no violence and rape in this story, there's only a mom with an axe to grind and a daughter who might not be interested in programming.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by etfb on Monday September 09, 2013 @09:50PM (#6357569)
This is a learning moment for you, Mr stefantalpalaru. What you've just said, although I know you meant it sanely and sensibly, has been interpreted as lacking in compassion. This is not your fault; what happened is you have made a comment from a position of unrecognised privilege. For your own good, and the good of any women you may have any kind of relationship with now and into the future, it would be a very good idea for you to read up on the concept of privilege, with an open mind. You will find it uncomfortable, and you will probably prefer to fight back rather than acknowledge a flaw in yourself, but in the long run it will prove to be the best thing to do, and you'll be glad you did.

Best wishes, and good luck!

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by Pinatubo on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @12:32AM (#6358184)
If your goal is to increase the acceptance of women in the tech community, this post is very counterproductive.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by etfb on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @02:15AM (#6358467)
Not at all! My goal is to respond to someone who is unkind with something close to kindness. If he goes on the way he has been, he'll do himself as much damage as he does to the people around him. The reasonable response to that sort of privileged blindness is anger; I was aiming for something a little more compassionate.

You, however, don't get the same consideration, because I strongly suspect you're a pillock.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by hacker789 on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @03:08AM (#6358617)
It's probably safe to assume that you're parodying the nakedly Orwellian nature of third-wave feminists, but I'm going to respond just in case this is a serious post.

This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop.

Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege.

No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high school graduation. Heck, no one cares that it is men who overwhelmingly make up the bottom of society.

Instead, we're having a collective anxiety attack because a hyper-privileged white woman is upset that her hyper-privileged white daughter might have had her feelings hurt in high school. This is surreal.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by ArtDev on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @01:13PM (#6361400)
Another apologist on HN, what a surprise.. Let me guess.. you are a white male. Nice. So am I. We have no idea what its like..

Gender equality in America has come a long way. However, there are still many occupations and places in America where equality is not the norm at all.

The best example of an occupation where women are not welcome is the military.

The best example of inequality in the courts is this recent case: http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/09/hacker-faces-more-jail-time...

Inequality is all around us.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by etfb on Wednesday September 11, 2013 @07:32AM (#6366514)
Oh dear. No help for you either, is there?
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by SideburnsOfDoom on Wednesday September 11, 2013 @08:50AM (#6366802)
For reference, hacker789 repeated this comment here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6360113 where it attracted more attention.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Monday September 09, 2013 @09:55PM (#6357589)
You must have had one horrific childhood if your bar for "nothing wrong at school" is "no violence or rape". If you ever have kids, I hope you aim a little higher for them.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by bragh on Monday September 09, 2013 @10:39PM (#6357796)
A school with "no violence or rape" wouldn't be just nothing wrong, it would be extraordinary. Even elite schools in developed and rich countries are filled with bullying: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/28/swedish-school-... Maybe you really ought to think about which school you went into in which neighborhood, which social clique you were a part of and if you still think no bullying happened, maybe it's time to think back on school and reevaluate some of your actions (hint: pranks and teasing might not be seen as that after all).
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by nmcfarl on Monday September 09, 2013 @11:07PM (#6357903)
I read this comment as normalizing violence and rape - saying that it is expected, as a matter of course.

I disagree with that characterization. Bullying, violence, and rape should never be normalized, nor acceptable, regardless of the age of the perpetrators. This is aberrant, immoral behavior and should never be treated as anything else.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Monday September 09, 2013 @11:00PM (#6357876)
I went to an all girls school, and while I'm sure there was bullying, there was definitely no violence or rape.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by Udo on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @04:02AM (#6358779)
I feel like I should come to the defense of mixed-gender schools here a bit, even though I realize your comment doesn't necessarily advocate gender isolation (but it does sort of imply the benefits of it).

I went to a mixed-sex high school, albeit you might choose to take this anecdote with a grain of salt since that was 20 years ago in Germany. There was certainly some bullying, although not on the scale I discovered much later in life was common elsewhere. There was almost no intra-school violence. I feel pretty confident in saying this because these things were taken very seriously by both staff and students alike, and the few cases where there had been confrontations between students quickly became very public and a matter of much water cooler talk afterwards. I can also say with about the same level of confidence as you that there was no rape, or other forms of gender-based violence. And coming back to the article's subject, CS class was mandatory for everyone at first - and even though in later years the course became one of those that could be voluntarily dropped, the gender balance stayed the same after that.

That said, school wasn't ideal for me as I was in it. CS class wasn't exactly great, mostly due to utter disinterest by 90% of the students who took it. At the time I had the feeling the school was a bad choice for individualists like me, though in hindsight I would revise that conclusion a bit (as a humanist-themed middle/high school it was actually much better than any other school I could have gone to).

I think it's important to bring young people up together and not artificially separate them into two groups. Of the many social problems present in my time studying there, gender issues were not one of them. There was no us-versus-them mentality, and informal social groups were almost always mixed. I can't help but wonder if that sort of normalcy is something single-gender schools actively campaign against.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @05:00AM (#6358944)
I also went to school outside America, ten years ago. I don't have a decided opinion on mixed schools either way - there are definitely benefits to single sex education, but they need to be weighed against the artificiality of the environment, as you say. Its worth noting that many of the straight up academic benefits of gender separation appear to be stronger for girls - higher participation in STEM subjects, more participation in class, better performance in general - but there is some evidence that boys perform better academically with girls in the class. (this might be a little out of date, I am less interested in the theory of school since I left it myself). I got the impression that the idea was basically to reduce social distraction during school: one could always hang out with the opposite sex after school (and most people did).
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by VLM on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @08:50AM (#6359653)
Whenever the topic of K12 .edu comes up, two loud and inherently conflicting arguments always percolate to the top:

1) Either we need to make school even less like the real world, by separating the sexes as per the above suggestion, or turning the school into the chronological opposite of a work release prison,

or

2) We need to make school more like the real world by banning unnatural things like homeschooling, because obviously no human beings work are home or own their own businesses and self direct themselves. Or no human beings carry a tiny swiss army knife on their keychain, so we need to ban that too, etc etc.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Monday September 09, 2013 @11:24PM (#6357974)
Although I'm not really sure why your defense of rape as normal high school experience managed to turn into a subtle accusation that I may have been a bully myself, and I probably should have ignored that.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by bragh on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @12:02AM (#6358092)
It wasn't a subtle accusation, because in my experience people who say school violence doesn't happen or they never saw it happen are/were actually bullies themselves. This post just confirmed it with the nice twisting of words, 'defense of rape as normal high school experience', oh really?

I was pointing out how much, much worse stuff happens in schools than just being told to 'make a sandwich' and trust me, I would have been a very happy little boy if only that had happened to my friends and me. To be honest, starting from the author of the article, this entire thread displays just how sheltered of a life many of this community must be living to start an Internet crusade (because this is what it is going to end up when the social justice warriors get wind of it) because of a boring class with an unqualified teacher.

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @03:16AM (#6358639)
I think you may be using violence to mean any kind of bullying, which is a little vague. Teenage girls certainly engage in a lot of bullying, but very little physical violence, perhaps even less so in the rich private school environment I was in. I'm sorry you don't believe me. And I think claiming that not-rape would be extraordinary is pretty solidly in line with saying that rape is normal, yes.

To me the thread illustrates that for a community that gives so much lip service to disruption and progress, a lot of people are really unwilling to put up with the idea that high school shouldn't have to be the pit of misery that is apparently common in American public schools. But über is solving real problems!

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by bragh on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @04:40AM (#6358886)
But there isn't a problem to solve for this community, because bullying isn't actually seen/acknowledged as a problem. Education officials are also only paying lip service and even that only after some very horrible case hits the newspapers and teachers are very underpaid for the amount of work they do. And the people who were bullied either won't get into any position of power with the capability to enact changes or are truly trying to forget it all.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by derleth on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @02:30AM (#6358511)
Bullying is violence, and I wonder how you know there was no rape.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by krakensden on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @02:54AM (#6358572)
Bullying can be, but it isn't necessarily. Please don't trivialize real violence.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @03:06AM (#6358608)
You're right, i completely discounted the possibility of female-female rape. I'm still pretty confident, but I take back the definitely. And I was using violence to mean physical injury, sorry if you were confused. I think it shouldn't be an unrealistic goal to have high schools where no one is raped or physically assaulted, I'm very confident i was at one, and I think that people who consider that so outlandish a suggestion that I must be an unwitting monster must have some sad backgrounds.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by makomk on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @10:47AM (#6360296)
Well, since almost everyone else completely discounts the possibility of female-female rape - probably including the teachers at your school - I wouldn't be so confident. After all, how would you know?
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by jacalata on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @05:51AM (#6359090)
And now I should apologize, because I realized I was thinking only of the student body when we did have some male teachers. So although I would be shocked to learn of any incidents, it is not as impossible as I said.
Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by stefantalpalaru on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @12:24PM (#6361057)
I was obviously referring to the starting lines:

> trigger alert

> (violence and rape references)

This is not Slashdot, you're supposed to read the article before commenting ;-)

Re:To my daughter's high school programming teacher by alukima on Tuesday September 10, 2013 @12:53AM (#6358235)
It's not as much about "evil boys" in general, like other commenters have pointed out similar jokes are heard in all classes. But it's much harder when you're the only girl, guy, white kid, black kid, ect. Even if it's an innocent joke it starts a me against them mentality.