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Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @02:30PM (#6311473)
Thanks for pointing out Brazil. And as for the OP, I would also point out History! I mean what is this bullshit - basic income guarantee has been in practice for 50 years in almost every communist state around Russia, my Poland included. It wasn't called that way, but the policy was that everyone has to have a job and receive a specified wage. And everyone did. You know what happened? Money was useless because there was no supply. Everybody had money, nobody was poor, the problem was - you can't eat paper.

You know what would happen in the US, where there is supply? It would drive spending nuts, demand would grow, prices would grow, therefore inflation would grow and the dollar would lose its value, effectively diminishing the basic income benefits.

Because life ain't fair, it never will be unless we live in utopia where everyone is good and there is no evil. So why not try it? Because there was a guy who wrote it all down. His name was Marks. And you know who used his theories in practice? Lenin. And you know what happened next? The Red Revolution.

Seriously, such ideas for the US… "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by scarmig on Sunday September 01, 2013 @04:14PM (#6311952)
"basic income guarantee has been in practice for 50 years in almost every communist state around Russia, my Poland included"

This type of statement betrays a total lack of understanding of what a basic income guarantee even is. Plenty of deeply anti-communist thinkers--including probably the most effective one in history--have supported a basic income.

Why did your native Poland fall far short of its productive potential? As you yourself say, it wasn't for lack of money: it was because the things people wanted to consume were not being produced.

The root cause of that was broken capital markets: special interests (or foreign special interests, in the case of Poland) captured political control of the economic resources of Poland and used non-market decision making to allocate capital. If people who completely deprioritize popular standard of living control capital, then, yes, unsurprisingly other things--military, party functionaries, foreign invaders--will end up getting their demand met.

Also: "Because life ain't fair, it never will be unless we live in utopia where everyone is good and there is no evil. So why not try it? Because there was a guy who wrote it all down. His name was Marks. And you know who used his theories in practice? Lenin. And you know what happened next? The Red Revolution."

It's abundantly clear that, for all his faults, you don't even have a passing acquaintance with Marx. He's wrong on virtually everything, but you're not even wrong.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @04:34PM (#6312041)
I can't comment on your reply because it lacks any argument against my post. Tell me where I'm wrong. But what I can tell you is that if you give $1,000 per month to every adult in US without any requirement, then: 1) you might as well not give any money to anybody, because relatively no ones wealth will change 2) at first everybody will be able to buy the essential stuff, food etc. but then 3) you will end up with inflation, because free money will create more demand, which in turn will result in smaller supply (relatively to demand) and higher prices, and cheaper dollar - in the end these $1,000 after a couple of months will buy you only $500 worth of goods (end game is that these $1,000 will be worthless after some period) 4) you will be spending $3bn per month on this, out of thin air, effectively pumping cash into the system, decreasing dollar value even more

To some extent this already has been tried in the US in the form of cheap mortgage credit to the poor. Thousands of dollars were given to people who defaulted and never paid back. Look where it got us…

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by scarmig on Sunday September 01, 2013 @05:52PM (#6312320)
Your points are inconsistent with each other: first you claim that no one's pattern of consumption will be affected, but then you move to claiming that the prices of basic goods will change. Those two things cannot both be true: which would you like me to address?

Overall, your main flaw is that you're considering the economy an entirely static thing. But as the demand for basic goods increases, it creates new business opportunities for both incumbents and potential entrants into the market. Capital seeks out profits, and relatively more capital would flow into the provision of basic goods. That's what prevents the basic income from dissipating into worthlessness.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @08:00AM (#6314720)
Not at all, not static. I'm just saying you cannot give people free money and not take that money from somewhere else. FED has been doing this, the quantitative easing, for some time now, but it's not feasible in the long run. Wealth is created, not given.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by russgray on Monday September 02, 2013 @10:34AM (#6315317)
"I'm just saying you cannot give people free money and not take that money from somewhere else"

No-one is saying that you should. A theoretical BIG would be funded by the money that is currently spent on inefficient and mismanaged state welfare. It's money that is already being spent, used in a different way.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by ctl on Sunday September 01, 2013 @09:54PM (#6313064)
1) you might as well not give any money to anybody, because relatively no ones wealth will change

Blatantly untrue -- under basic income poor people will see their relative purchasing power increase, and rich people will see theirs decrease.

3) you will end up with inflation, because free money will create more demand, which in turn will result in smaller supply (relatively to demand) and higher prices

Or maybe supply will go up? You know we have an unemployment problem, right? More demand is exactly what America wants right now. It creates business and employment opportunities.

in the end these $1,000 after a couple of months will buy you only $500 worth of goods (end game is that these $1,000 will be worthless after some period)

Obviously basic income would be pegged to GDP, hence pegged to inflation. This is a non-argument.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @07:48AM (#6314680)
1) If I have $0 and you have $100 and we both get $1000, you are still $100 richer than me. Also, if you say that purchasing power of the rich decreases, you are admitting to inflation. If I have $10,000 and can buy 20 laptops, but after the $0 guy gets $1000 he of course feels better, he can now buy 1 laptop - however I can only buy 10 laptops now. The value of the dollar dropped by half :/ that's what you are saying?

And about pegging, if you say you increase the payout according to increasing inflation, then wow, you now have a hyperinflation (that's when prices go up 100% in a matter of days, each week).

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by moocowduckquack on Monday September 02, 2013 @03:13AM (#6313842)
Think of it like USA Inc. with every citizen a shareholder entitled to dividends from GDP. It is not free money.

Also, your economics is pants. Giving $1000 to everyone is going to make a lot more difference to someone eating out of dumpsters than it is to Bill Gates. And it isn't about rescuing people by giving them a lump sum and expecting that things will be fine, it is just about giving people enough time for reflection that more of them have a chance to sort their shit out. Life is hard and people are disorganised bastards, if we try and make it a bit easier for people we might get more done.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @07:57AM (#6314712)
It will make a lot more difference to those who are wealthy as well. But not in a good way.

USA Inc. with every citizen as shareholder would work like this: I earn $100K/y, my neighbour just $0/y. I pay $20K in taxes, he pays none. We both get $12K/y from BIG. For me it's a dividend. For my neighbour it's free money. So what's my incentive to work? Screw this, I quit. Now, USA Inc. get's $0/y from both of us. For 4 months we still get the cash, from the surplus. But that runs out, and now we both get $0 and are jobless.

BIG will only work if there are more people who work than those who don't work. Making things easier for people never actually helped them. Those who succeeded had to go through hard work.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by russgray on Monday September 02, 2013 @10:38AM (#6315341)
"So what's my incentive to work? Screw this, I quit"

Your incentive to work is that you earn $100k instead of $12k. I certainly wouldn't quit my job if it means that much of an income hit. This is actually a real situation for me - I could quit my job tomorrow and get more than $12k in benefits, but I won't.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @04:05PM (#6316874)
Good point. But what if you earned $20k? The problem here is, you would have to go straight from $0 to at least $24k to have incentive to work. Anything less is just not worth the hassle, if you get $12k for nothing. And that creates a problem - how people are going to go up the career ladder, if at the starting point they want so much?
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by GFischer on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @02:28PM (#6322726)
Interns? Work for nothing/benefits/nonmonetary compensation/experience?

(I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the premise, just brainstorming)

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by TheCoelacanth on Monday September 02, 2013 @06:18PM (#6317498)
Even a minimum wage job would double your income. That is plenty of incentive to work.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by moocowduckquack on Monday September 02, 2013 @10:54PM (#6318468)
Making things easier for people never actually helped them.

You'd lose a lot of people as a lifeguard.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @02:15PM (#6322642)
I'd rather teach them how to swim when they are young.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by moocowduckquack on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @09:15PM (#6324953)
Then, in addition to my previous comment, especially at a pool for the elderly.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by nbouscal on Sunday September 01, 2013 @06:38PM (#6312469)
> It wasn't called that way, but the policy was that everyone has to have a job and receive a specified wage.

That is not a basic income guarantee. With a basic income guarantee, you receive the basic income regardless of whether you have a job or not. You do not have to have a job. If you choose to have a job, you earn a wage in addition to your basic income. The system you're describing is a completely, fundamentally different thing from a basic income guarantee.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @08:05AM (#6314742)
Let me explain: in a communist country, people had various jobs. Each job had a different salary. But everyone had a job, everybody had income. So, if you asked anyone "Do you earn at least $100?" - all would say "Yes". But some could earn more if they were in better jobs. Obviously that meant you didn't actually have to work to receive salary - that's why productivity sucked. Not so different now, huh?
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by nbouscal on Monday September 02, 2013 @09:49AM (#6315122)
Yes, still very, very different. Having a job where you don't actually accomplish any work is completely different from not having a job at all. Having a non-productive job wastes your time and saps your energy. I've had them before, and they're soul-crushing. Not having a job at all, on the other hand, frees you to do real work. Creative work, work in line with your passion. That's what we really need people to be spending their time on, not raking all the leaves from one end of Central Park to the other and back.

When J.K. Rowling was on benefits from the UK government, she wrote the first in a series of novels that would go on to become the best-selling novel series of all time and earn her hundreds of millions of pounds, a good portion of which went back to the UK government in tax revenue. If instead she had been forced to do a menial, unproductive job, none of that would have happened. Her words on the subject: “I stopped pretending to myself that I was anything other than what I was, and began to direct all my energy to finishing the only work that mattered to me. … And so rock bottom became a solid foundation on which I rebuilt my life.”

Buckminster Fuller hit the nail on the head with this quote: “We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian-Darwinian theory, he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.”

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @11:51AM (#6315680)
I understand your point and you are quite right that if an exceptional individual has given space to pursue his passion without the worries of "making a living", it's awesome and they can blossom. But for general population, this doesn't work. Otherwise Poland would be filled with success in all fields instead of 2M jobless receiving unemployment pension.
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by hcarvalhoalves on Sunday September 01, 2013 @03:01PM (#6311606)
> I mean what is this bullshit - basic income guarantee has been in practice for 50 years in almost every communist state around Russia, my Poland included. It wasn't called that way, but the policy was that everyone has to have a job and receive a specified wage.

But is it really the same thing?

A basic income guarantee is the same as having a basic (food/healthcare/public services/whatever) guarantee (basically, state welfare already implemented in many countries) - the difference is the government is paying in money instead of trying to provide the services themselves.

The way I see it, it's quite different than everybody getting the same income. It has the potential to improve public service efficiency and foster the economy away from big production centers (decreasing city population density, which causes a lot of problems on it's own, like homelessness or poor housing conditions, traffic, health and environmental issues, all of which are problems the government has to waste money on already).

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by saraid216 on Monday September 02, 2013 @03:07AM (#6313824)
> Because life ain't fair, it never will be unless we live in utopia where everyone is good and there is no evil. So why not try it? Because there was a guy who wrote it all down. His name was Marks. And you know who used his theories in practice? Lenin. And you know what happened next? The Red Revolution.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6311812

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by lutusp on Monday September 02, 2013 @03:12AM (#6313839)
> Because there was a guy who wrote it all down. His name was Marks [sic]. And you know who used his theories in practice? Lenin.

Marks, really? If you want to pose as a scholar, at least learn to spell the names of important historical figures. And this isn't a trivial correction -- because you think his name is Karl Marks, your post will not show up in Web searches of the topic you think you're writing about.

Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by f055 on Monday September 02, 2013 @07:50AM (#6314692)
I don't pose for anything, I'm just saying what is logical. 2+2 != 5. And sorry for this heresy I committed by not writing Karl's surname properly - force of habit, this is how we write his surname in Poland. Now does it change the discussion in any way? I don't think so...
Re:We Need a Basic Income Guarantee by zentiggr on Tuesday September 03, 2013 @03:58PM (#6323352)
A big difference between the BIG scenario and what you describe is "everyone has to have a job". The inefficiencies of/resistance to state-mandated production quotas make the two systems significantly different.