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Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by a035bb942 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @03:47AM (#6204487)
It's all an insane mess. I do feel for US expats that have to go through this, when no other expats have to (the US and Eritrea are the only countries that practice citizenship based taxation [1]), but I'll bring to this thread another group of people that I haven't seen mentioned so far in this thread. Again, I'm not trying to detract from US expats. Your problems are real enough, and you are unfairly treated, but here's a rant about another group of people:

Some of us are US citizens born abroad. We are the children of one or two US parents, born outside the US. We have lived our entire lives as citizens of another country, and our ties to the US may be as slim as having been there on vacation a couple of times. We are still subject to all of this. And while it is true that most (all?) won't be double-taxed, the reporting requirements are so complex and so strict - and made all the more complicated by incompatibilities of the tax codes of our native countries and that of the US - that it's almost impossible not to make a mistake. And mistakes are punished severely - at least in theory. Even trying to evaluate whether university scholarships in my country is taxable by the US (an obscene idea on the face of it) seems to take a lawyer or accountant. Where does it end? What about child benefits? Pensions?

Yes, we could renounce our US citizenships when we turned 18. In my case, however, I was not told I was a US citizen. It's now more than a decade on, and I've never filed with the IRS because my US parent did not tell me I was a citizen until recently. What on Earth do I do? So far, I've frozen in place and not dared do anything. I am not a US person in any common sense of the word, but I feel entirely trapped by that foreign country. The benefits of a US citizenship that have come up in this thread have an entirely opposite sign for me: I'm a researcher, and would love to spend significant time at US institutions, but now I can't - I can't stay beyond a tourist visa as a foreigner because as far as the US is concerned I'm not a foreigner. And I can't travel on a US passport because I don't know what will happen to me if I get one and do. And I can't fix things with the IRS (which I'd love to do), because I have no idea how many laws I've accidentally and unknowingly broken. I'm sorry that I have, and I wish I hadn't, but how could I possibly have known? You might say that my parent should have told me - and I agree - but that didn't happen. While ignorance of the law is no excuse normally, I certainly am not going to do anything that places me in danger (financially or otherwise) from a foreign nation - so here I am, frozen in limbo. As for any social service the US might provide, I can tell you that every one of these is provided better and more generously by my liberal European homeland. I don't want anything from the US - I only want to either be let go and leave the club, or be treated fairly. Either one is fine by me, but the current situation is not.

Incidentally, any pointers from HN would be much appreciated. I know my status quo of "do nothing, sit still" won't be good in the long run, but I also have no damn idea on how to approach the matter.

Let me summarize again: I've never earned a dollar in the US. I've never received a dollar from any US entity, save the odd birthday present from relatives as a kid. I've never been to the US for more than a couple of weeks at a time - and only as a tourist. I've never voted in the US. I've never brought money into or out of the US - except ordinary tourist amounts. I pay (comparatively) high taxes where I live - in my country, my home, which is not the US. I never knew I was a US citizen. Now all of these benefits that people bring up apply to me with a negative sign. I'd gladly give up my US citizenship - but you can't unless you've proven that you're good with the IRS going back 5 years, and that you're not renouncing for tax reasons. As for that latter part - some might say I am... I am, afterall, trying to avoid being haunted by a foreign nation's tax collecting agency for the rest of my life. Is that renouncing for tax reasons? God knows...

(Sorry for the rant - this has just constanly occupied 10% of my head for a while, and it's not like there's a lot of people nearby in the same situation to talk to... any pointers from you guys would be great).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Citizen...

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by adamcik on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @04:25AM (#6204590)
Last year in September a tax delinquent program for expats was enacted, what this means is basically that you need to file the last three years of taxes, and the last six years of FBAR (for the years you had more than 10K USD in your accounts). This is instead of the last five years of taxes that you would normally be required to do. You would only need to actually pay taxes if you are over ~90K USD a year and don't have enough foreign tax credits to cover it.

To be able to actually file the taxes you need a SSN. You can get this by going to a consulate or embassy, bringing the proper original documentation (get in touch with them for the details). They will make certified copies, mail those up the chain until it gets to the state department and 3-6 months later you will have your SSN.

For actually doing the taxes one option is to pay someone to do it. You still end up doing a lot of prep-work yourself, so you are basically paying to some peace at mind that they've signed of on things being correct.

If you go for a renunciation, the date you renounce is the date your tax obligation ends, this has recently changed and not all tax accounts, even the ones that specialize in expats seem to know this. This means you might end up with renouncing before you have a SSN, and thus your taxes in order, so look into the laws and/or ask an expert before deciding how to handle this.

Last bit is figuring out exit taxes, there the tax accountants seem to be useless as it makes no sense for them to specialize in one time customers. But it seems they will happily charge you for looking over and sanity checking the form once you fill it out.

You can also forget calling the IRS and getting any help about renunciations, they consider such matters "advanced" and will only tell you to get a lawyer and/or tax accountant.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130626160026/http://www.renunci... used to have a very comprehensive coverage of the renunciation process, but seems to have disappeared :(

As for how to proceed, and what makes sense to do is a highly personal matter and depends on so many things. The act of renunciation is irrevocable, and should not be taken lightly. I wish you the best of luck as having this type of stuff looming over you is really draining.

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by a035bb942 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @06:04AM (#6204855)
I appreciate your comments.
Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by patio11 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @06:16AM (#6204880)
1) Get a US passport. Assuming you're a US citizen, this is not that hard. This will solve 99.8% of your US travel problems. People greatly overestimate how much passports and the IRS have to do with each other: in all but egregious cases, they have nothing to do with each other.

2) You're going to want to file back taxes with the IRS. Include a letter explaining your situation briefly (didn't know I was an American until quite recently, received passport as of $MONTH_AGO, and am making a good-faith effort to bring my tax situation into compliance with the law) and file for the last six years. Pick a different number if your accountant tells you different.

Despite the IRS' reputation, they do have actual human beings working there, and they do make compassionate decisions. And guess what? Squeezing you for your US tax liabilities, which are quite likely to be zero, won't make anyone's quota.

3) Here's what you're going to do for each year you filed: take a copy of your $NATION taxes. Find the gross earned income number. Convert to USD using the yearly average exchange rate, which you can find published on http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Yearl...

You put that number in the income line of your Form 1040. You will then file a Form 2555, Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. You can probably get away with the 2555-EZ, which is the quick-entry version. Check the box for Physical Presence Test, since you spent 330+ days out of the year physically outside of the US and can trivially prove this. (You're also a slam dunk for Bona Fide Residence but FPT is easier on both the IRS and you.)

You will copy the number from your 1040 which you reported for income, deduct it using Form 2555, and report (unless you're making over $85k a year, which I think is unlikely in Europe as a researcher unless I miss my guess) 0 taxable income and, as a consequence, 0 taxes.

You then mail this off to the IRS.

If you hear back from the IRS, it will likely be to request additional documentation. If it isn't screamingly obvious what documentation they want, talk to your accountant. But, again, this will occupy a low-level staffer's time for about twenty minutes as they punch your information into the computer and then promptly forget about you.

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by a035bb942 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @06:26AM (#6204921)
> 1) Get a US passport. Assuming you're a US citizen, this is not that hard. This will solve 99.8% of your US travel problems. People greatly overestimate how much passports and the IRS have to do with each other: in all but egregious cases, they have nothing to do with each other.

Rumor has it (I can't find the source again) that US embassies now report every passport application to the IRS.

> Pick a different number if your accountant tells you different.

My accountant? This is an example of the glaring "incompatibilities" between the US tax system and that of other countries. In my country nobody has an accountant unless they're a millionaire or owns a business. It's insanely expensive to have one. Using an accountant every year is not a solution. But I appreciate your input :-)

> 3) Here's what you're going to do for each year you filed: take a copy of your $NATION taxes. Find the gross earned income number. Convert to USD using the yearly average exchange rate, which you can find published on

Yes, but there's still the vast minefield that is non-earned-income money. This is a substantial amount in many European social democracies.

> (unless you're making over $85k a year, which I think is unlikely in Europe as a researcher unless I miss my guess)

Not at all. It's true in my case, but in the private sector $85k for a researcher would be considered low in my country. Again, it's an absolutely impossible situation to work from a fixed dollar amount that has no connection to the cost of living in a given country. Some European (an other) countries have an insanely higher cost of living than the US.

Your reading of the situation is pretty close to my first impression - "rather reasonable - just a lot of paperwork". But it's a vast minefield as soon as you start reading the fine print. I do really appreciate your input, though :-)

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by mechanical_fish on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @07:19AM (#6205069)
I'll let the actual expats weigh in, but you really do need to talk to an accountant. You will be told what your options are. Then you will know, and can stop freaking out.

This is 2013, so you can consult US-based accountants over the phone. The initial discussion will likely take an hour or so and cost at most a couple hundred dollars. Ask about the fee in advance. There is a chance that a friendly accountant will explain the steps for you for cheap, as part of the sales process for future business.

Who said anything about "every year"? Consult an accountant once, to learn the score. Then decide whether or not you want to consult one again.

That you are apparently culturally conditioned to believe that accountants are ultra-rare tools of the super-elite explains a lot about why you sound so nervous. Accountants are a routine in the USA. Mine costs a few hundred bucks a year, easily pays for his own services in taxes-saved, and much more importantly provides a lot of peace of mind. I often have to guess what laws and forms and fine print might apply to me, but accountants know, as part of their job.

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by patio11 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @07:06AM (#6205032)
Yes, but there's still the vast minefield that is non-earned-income money. This is a substantial amount in many European social democracies.

If you tell me what particular public benefit you're talking about and what country it is from, I can find you an authoritative citation for this, but I am almost certain that the type of benefit you are thinking of is not income for the purposes of US tax law.

Publication 525, "Do not include in your income payments made from a public welfare fund on the basis of need [except] if they are compensation for services or obtained fraudulently."

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by gsb on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @09:08AM (#6205427)
Possibly by non-earned-income he means passive income.

You are not allowed to exclude passive income on form(s) 2555. It is foreign earned-income, not foreign-earned income.

Although foreign retirement benefits are also taxable to the US for many countries.

Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by fsckin on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @04:39AM (#6204634)
Thanks for the perspective, an interesting one at that. You need to talk with an attorney familiar with immigration and tax issues. If you walk in, they will usually listen for 15-30 minutes free of charge (at least in the USA, lol) before taking you on as a client.
Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by Luc on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @04:04AM (#6204532)
My European tax office has procedures to regularize messy situations (e.g. a child inheriting a foreign bank account containing undeclared money earned by the parents). A 15 minute chat with a lawyer specialized in this would help you out a lot I think.
Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by a035bb942 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @06:05AM (#6204857)
Good idea! I've always found my country's tax office to be very helpful when I've made mistakes or had questions with my taxes in the past. They might have some tips for the whole US situation.
Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by nsp on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @04:07AM (#6204545)
Email me (in profile), I know a few propel that have been in similar situations
Re:U.S. Expats Balk at Tax Law: American Citizen Renunciatio... by a035bb942 on Tuesday August 13, 2013 @06:05AM (#6204859)
I will do this when I get home from work. Thank you.