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Re:We need an NRA for privacy by rayiner on Friday August 09, 2013 @10:07AM (#6185706)
Privacy advocates need to get their act together and form a single-issue organization. I need to be seeing teenagers coming to my house peddling privacy the way they do for churches and baby seals. The tech industry needs to sack up and realize that their business interests are at stake, and put some serious money in PACs behind the whole effort. It needs to have a focused mission, no getting distracted in related issues (e.g. copyright reform or reform of hacking laws), but be a big tent (don't care what else your other viewpoints are). There needs to be a diversity of messages, targeted at different demographics. There has to be something in it not just for techie yuppies in San Francisco, but also church-going grandmothers in small-town Iowa (any political movement that can't capture at least some old people is dead on arrival). That's a key strength of the NRA: it has vigorous support across a wide diversity of voting demographics.

The EFF and the ACLU are fine for what they are, but they've got too broad of a mandate to have the kind of focused impact you want. You can't be an effective mainstream advocacy organization when you're off defending unsympathetic people for principled purposes. That's an important thing too, but it's a different thing.

For people interested in effecting real political change, I seriously recommend watching this documentary on the Prohibition: http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition. One group of people got a nation that until (and during and after!) prohibition drank 140 million gallons of liquor a year to outlaw alcohol. The money wasn't on their side (the government made 1/3 of its revenues from liquor taxes and the beer makers had tremendous power), but they accomplished their goal by masterful politicking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Wheeler.

"Under Wheeler's leadership, the League focused entirely on the goal of achieving Prohibition. It organized at the grass-roots level and worked extensively through churches. It supported or opposed candidates based entirely on their position regarding prohibition, completely disregarding political party affiliation or other issues. Unlike other temperance groups, the Anti-Saloon League worked with the two major parties rather than backing the smaller Prohibition Party."

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by snowwrestler on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:15AM (#6186134)
> Privacy advocates need to get their act together and form a single-issue organization. I need to be seeing teenagers coming to my house peddling privacy the way they do for churches and baby seals. The tech industry needs to sack up and realize that their business interests are at stake, and put some serious money in PACs behind the whole effort.

But privacy advocates are frequently at odds with tech companies over privacy issues. See CISPA for example, which pretty much every major tech company supported, but privacy advocates hated.

The NRA's issue aligns gun manufacturers, gun retailers, and gun enthusiasts, which makes fundraising a lot easier. I don't think privacy is like that, though. No one makes or sells privacy.

The labor or environmental movements might be better models for a privacy movement--both started out as grassroots campaigns without any substantial corporate support. The environmental movement in particular has done a good job of turning their issue into a popular cause, forcing companies to go along, at least publicly.

Edit to add: What the environmental movement did so well was to create a personal sense of danger--YOUR kid might get sick from pollution. YOUR favorite animal might go extinct. Etc.

Privacy advocates have, IMO, done a terrible job of this so far. To many of them just take it for granted that awareness is enough--that everyone agrees with them that it is horrifying for personal information to get collected and aggregated. Most people don't care, though, because they don't have a reason to care.

What privacy advocates need are personal stories that demonstrate how impingements on privacy led to direct harm to innocent people--and they need to be the sort of thing that make John Q. Public think, "that could happen to me!" or "That could be my child!"

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:13PM (#6186491)
Until we have specific, actual, real privacy atrocities I can't see this effort getting the traction of any of the groups you've specified. Labor had company towns and less but still specifically abusive employers, with plenty of specific people maimed or killed in unsafe workplaces or labor actions. Environmentalists had deformed children from Japanese industrial mercury dumping, and, oh, the Cuyahoga River catching on fire. Gun grabbers have killed, maimed, or otherwise grossly abused thousands of people and that continues to this day.

What specific incidents, with victims most will empathize with, can the privacy effort point to?

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by rdl on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:34PM (#6186612)
Probably nothing, because the actual people at NSA have remained pretty focused on their mission even absent any real technical or legislative-oversight controls. I suspect that will be the case until the hired-in-2001 people leave the agency and are replaced mainly with people trained by those post-2001 people. In the most junior roles at NSA, that's probably already happened.

I wonder if "diffuse harm happening to everyone" can ever compete with "concrete harm happening to specific people you identify with". It's clear "concrete harm happening to people about whom you give zero fucks, or actively dislike" is meaningless.

In the first category, let's go with atmospheric nuclear testing -- a small but concrete global cancer risk increase. We ended that, but only after doing it a lot, and getting most of the benefit. I'm not sure if occasional-but-universal things like car accidents (measures like airbags, etc.) count as the first or second category. The second gets a whole range of things. The third, virtually everything about warfare. All serious privacy/comsec things to date have been in the third category (unless you don't hate drug users, in which case some might be in the second category). The harm of the first category has been exceptionally minor, even if you believe humans at NSA read every single packet.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by mtinkerhess on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:44PM (#6186686)
None, because apparently the people who the specific incidents happen to are either never aware of it or are told they can't talk about it.

Visibility is a particular challenge for the privacy issue. On the one hand, it means that advocacy groups should make transparency one of their platform's planks; on the other hand, it exposes advocacy group to the criticism that they are conspiracy theorists asking the government to reveal violations that ostensibly don't exist.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by pessimizer on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:47PM (#6186702)
The NRA doesn't have "specific, actual, real gun rights atrocities" and they do just fine. How about people who won't give up their privacy until it is pried from their cold dead fingers just getting an address to send a check to in order to feel like they have agents working on their behalf?

Do the NAR or the Chamber of Commerce need atrocities?

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:54PM (#6186749)
You are GROSSLY ignorant of the history of gun grabbing atrocities, and they critically proceed the NRA's rise in political power. Read up on '70s BATF abuses of the GCA of '68 and get back to us before continuing to spout counterfactuals.

This is exactly what got me started on this issue in the early '70s.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by pessimizer on Friday August 09, 2013 @02:56PM (#6187604)
On what planet does the seizure of guns count as an atrocity? I support gun rights absolutely, but you're looking at what I said through single-issue glasses.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:44PM (#6187943)
When it's not following the Constitution and in the BATF's case frequently the law, and the gun owner gets "seized" and imprisoned as well, it's definitely in that direction. And they have regularly and often explicitly decreased the number of legal, licensed gun sellers, that's a pretty big thing, along with a multitude of abusive prosecutions of them.

But as I said, you haven't done your homework, or checked this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6185918 top level comment of mine where I detail some of the more notorious cases:

"Our side can point to kittens killed ("I swear I am not making this up"), pregnant mothers who miscarried, people crippled for life, mothers shot dead while holding a baby (Ruby Ridge, in which the BATF was enlisted to try to force her husband to spy), and many many outright killed (Waco started out as a BATF "ricebowl" operation, they wanted some nice video for their first budget in the Clinton Administration). Plus a constant drumbeat of gun owners ensnared by "flypaper" laws in gun grabbing localities; even NYC has realized it's damaging their tourist industry."

Please do your basic research before making more such howlers.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by _delirium on Friday August 09, 2013 @04:15PM (#6188170)
Those seem like more "weird American law enforcement" things than inherent to gun control. Europe has largely [1] phased out guns in the past 50 years in a much more orderly way. It might not be a good idea that they did so, but it did happen in a pretty sane, non-cowboy, non-BATF sort of way, that I don't think would count as an "atrocity" in the regular sense of the term.

[1] With some exceptions. Carrying guns is still fairly common in sparsely populated rural areas, especially those with bears (northern Norway/Finland/Sweden). And, non-carry possession in the home is common in Switzerland. Switzerland is an interesting case because they cover both extremes: their law combines mandatory universal gun ownership with a very restrictive carry regime that makes it virtually impossible to carry a loaded gun out of the home (and even restricts the transportation of unloaded guns).

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @04:24PM (#6188216)
Perhaps, I don't pay that close attention to the countries my ancestors left, although I do know there a lot more legal guns owned than you realize, check Wikipedia, plus Germans for some inexplicable reason are thought to have keep possession of ... 26 million? illegal guns. Start e.g. here and note France and Austria as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_co... ; dig around in Wikipedia or the sources for official legal vs. estimated illegal.

But irrelevant to my general point of:

Gun grabber atrocities were followed by gun owner political power.

A stark lack of privacy atrocities is correlating with no privacy political power.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @05:57PM (#6188811)
WRT of your additions on Switzerland: it's much less universal now, post-Cold War. They only manufactured a bit over 600,000 SIG 550s/Stgw [19]90s for a current population of 8 million. Per Wikipedia the size of the official army is now "about 200,000 personnel, 120,000 receiving periodic military training and 80,000 reservists who have completed their total military training requirements." With a 15 year normal term of service, if they're still following the old pattern of allowing you to buy a converted to semi-auto version of your service rifle when you muster out, quite a few of those have been removed from service.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by smsm42 on Saturday August 10, 2013 @03:30AM (#6190348)
Seizure of the property of a law-abiding citizen by the government without any just cause is certainly an atrocity, even more - when this property is related to the right specifically mentioned in the Bill of Rights, so important it is.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Saturday August 10, 2013 @10:54AM (#6191259)
Indeed, the usual suspects would be up in arms if printing presses (e.g. "high capacity" "assault" fast laser printers) were being seized.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by rayiner on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:43PM (#6187939)
IMHO: Seizure of property is a far greater atrocity than looking through some peoples' emails.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by snowwrestler on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:53PM (#6186744)
Not atrocities, but the threat is definitely personal. The message is basically "the government will take YOUR guns if you don't stand with the NRA."
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by smsm42 on Saturday August 10, 2013 @03:58AM (#6190386)
It is true. When I read the laws that are being proposed nationally and locally in the state I live in, I realized there's a real chance that my right to own a firearm is under a real threat. And to illustrate that, I have before my eyes a number of localities where this right is already destroyed. So my choice of giving the money to the NRA was obvious and easy to make.

The choice of giving money to, say, EFF, is also easy for me to make, but I couldn't point to a specific and targeted threat in this case, it is more of a feeling that things take a wrong direction, which is not as mobilizing.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by damoncali on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:47PM (#6186705)
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by pessimizer on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:50PM (#6186722)
True, but the NRA was powerful before Ruby Ridge or the Davidians.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by fnordfnordfnord on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:25AM (#6186202)
Some of these aren't single issue, but still relevant IMO. Please reply with other groups. Maybe we can decide which is the most suitable. Some groups may need vetting, and I can't think of a better place than HN for critical commentary regarding the activities of any particular group. I personally give to the EFF, and EPIC.

https://www.EFF.org

https://www.EPIC.org

https://www.PrivacyCoalition.org

https://www.privacyinternational.org/

https://www.ccc.de

PS I second rayiner's rec' of the PBS series. I was surprised to learn that the Federal gov't had funded itself almost entirely with alcohol tax proceeds prior to Prohibition.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by the_watcher on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:29AM (#6186225)
The problem I see with the ACLU and EFF is exactly what you mention - you've got to get older people involved. Fairly or unfairly (generally unfairly, in my opinion), both of those organizations have pretty negative connotations with the church going grandmother you reference. The ACLU's sometimes mindless pursuit of "civil rights" (which I think they do a good job of generally, but it does grate when everything is compared to the plight of African Americans, something that is almost becoming the Goodwin's Law of civil rights). The EFF trying to save "hackers" and "pirates" - which is completely unfair, but it's what the small town older people without computers hear and fear. A new organization that could start from scratch would make a huge difference, and could focus on educating people that this is seriously the equivalent of the government reading snail mail.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by rayiner on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:36AM (#6186261)
Note that you rarely see the NRA coming to the defense of hardened inner-city thugs getting railroaded with felon-in-possession type charges. It's careful to craft an image, and that image is centered on one set of people who use guns and not the other sets of people who use guns.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by the_watcher on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:28PM (#6186574)
The NRA is also very careful to support people who don't actually violate gun laws (whether because they are just normal people with guns for hunting/protection or people exploiting loopholes that - regardless of your feelings towards them - are codified by law), or who are at least making some attempt at a credible argument (trying to phrase this as politically neutral as possible. I'm not here to debate their policy, just observe their actions) for the legitimate need for it. The way the NRA gets support is from people who want to make it easier to legally own guns. If we are being honest, "hardened inner city thugs" are not people who care whether the gun they have is legal or not, just whether or not it's easy to get. The NRA's explicit mission is more specific than make guns easy to get. It's make them easier to get legally. Again, this supports the need for a hyperspecific single issue organization that focuses on privacy. The NRA gets a lot of traction by focusing on freedom and the Constitution. A privacy organization would be wise to take note of what plays with the NRA - worries about government databases of guns should be very easy to relate to actual government databases of communications.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by damoncali on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:39PM (#6186644)
worries about government databases of guns should be very easy to relate to actual government databases of communications.

Bingo. There is a strong ally for privacy advocates in the NRA. This hasn't blown up in the media yet, but you can be sure it will next time discussions of gun registration/background checks comes up.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:59PM (#6186785)
It will seldom if ever blow up in the media---did you hear about the publishing of gun owner names and addresses in various parts of New York, let alone a big media backlash???---but it is something we gun owners know about.

For both causes we're going to have to depend a lot on other methods of publicity. E.g. I'll bet you haven't heard that the Democratic administration running Missouri illegally gave the Social Security Administration the entire list of the state's concealed carry licensees.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by the_watcher on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:20PM (#6187773)
This is damoncali's point. There is a huge opportunity here for both sides. The NRA gets to shine a light on illegal surveillance (or whatever you want to call it) without having to simultaneously fight the battle over guns. They can fight that battle separately, while at the same, any major wins for privacy are generally wins for the NRA in general. It goes both ways too. The NRA is extremely influential (imagine the impact the NRA announcing it would score the vote on Amash Amendment?) and are possibly the most savvy group of lobbyists in the history of democratic politics.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by damoncali on Friday August 09, 2013 @06:24PM (#6188968)
The NRA will make sure that whatever they do, it will be in the context of guns. It's what they do and with good reason.

My point is more that some privacy advocates and some gun advocates share their distrust of governmental data snooping. The NRA has long fought data collection/abuse about gun owners and is well used to doing do. It would behoove the privacy movement to learn from and work with the NRA on the issue as it pertains to guns, because that knowledge will be useful in the more general case.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:53PM (#6188012)
It may be his point (not going to parse that), but it's not going to happen. As I've described elsewhere in this thread the NRA is not going to stray from its single issue unless something directly impinges on it, like McCain-Feingold's prohibitions on its core political speech. It's a very critical part of why we're even discussing it's effectiveness; asking it to be less effective because you'd like having its muscle in your corner is not to the point.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by the_watcher on Saturday August 10, 2013 @05:30PM (#6192746)
My point is that there is a large constituent in the NRA that is very receptive to the idea that government databases of private citizen actions represent a slippery. I'd also argue that courts finding it lawful (or tolerably unlawful or whatever euphemism we'll be fed) would directly impinge on the NRA's mission as much as McCain-Feingold. A lot of card carrying NRA members still remember being grouped in with "domestic terrorists" for owning guns back in the early Napolitano tenure.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by _delirium on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:52AM (#6186368)
That sounds right for EFF, but I'd be interested if there are any numbers for the age distribution of ACLU members. I'd always gotten the impression that their core supporters are baby boomers, generally >50 y/o.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by the_watcher on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:36PM (#6186627)
You may be correct, but their core support being baby boomers doesn't exclude the possibility that an audience they need to reach is also in that age group. The issue with privacy is that it should have the largest contingent of support of any single issue. Tea partiers, pure libertarians, anarchists, leftists, gun rights supporters, free speech supporters, paranoid conspiracy nuts, militias (I'm running through every group and stereotype I can come up with here, please don't be offended, just trying show how broad the coalition should be), Black Panther types, the immigration crowd, even some number of religious groups worried about persecution should all be able to unite behind this issue as a single one they care about. Really, it's only going to be the most autocratic types who don't at least sympathize (if not support) the movement. At least, I haven't encountered anyone who doesn't at least get my outrage, even if they might be a bit more open to NSA-type activities than me.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by danso on Friday August 09, 2013 @10:13AM (#6185740)
I upvoted you for the general sentiment and the not-common-enough use of "effecting" as a verb...but I think privacy is too big for any single organization. Keep in mind that the hardest hitters...such as Google, who was instrumental in pushing back against SOPA, are themselves pushing the commercial boundaries of what people are comfortable with in regards to privacy.

I think it's better to treat privacy as a multi-faceted issue worth the time of several organizations. The First Amendment has been defended by various numbers of journalistic and religious organizations as well as the ACLU...There is some overlap, but each organization fights best within their specific domains.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by joyeuse6701 on Friday August 09, 2013 @10:29AM (#6185856)
Hmm, tech industry won't care until it truly affects the business. The more direct the better. After listening to Jared Lanier, I feel convinced that if the companies holding private information had to pay to obtain it, they'd be much more involved in privacy protection as it is a form of asset protection and it would be that much more obvious.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by jivatmanx on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:25AM (#6186201)
Prohibition succeeded because they formed an alliance with the Women's Suffrage movement.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by Torkild on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:37PM (#6186635)
Prohibition failed because it allowed the bootleggers of the underground to fully monopolize their trade without having to abide by any legal restrictions. If a business no longer has the threat of ramifications for questionable acts, then the questionable acts increase exponentially.

That can be two-way though. Cracking down only builds a stronger underground, which is where I see the entire surveillance issue going. As with all other ails in society, the ones with the power to effect real change are precisely the ones who would suffer most by said change. So it won't happen. Petitions, demonstrations, appeals courts, etc, are all useless. And there could never be a massive, singular pro-privacy effort as there is no money to be made. The NRA and big pharma have huge lobby groups playing with billions of dollars because there's billions more to be made.

So what? It's harder to combat guerrillas than a standing army. There's not always safety in numbers, sometimes that just results in a bigger target. So what if the Feds can tap into the larger encrypted anythings, give them a thousand tiny encryption outlets to deal with instead. Not a united cause, but a million different efforts. OWS failed bigtime because there were too many cooks in the kitchen. Aligning forces means individual voices get lost in the shuffle of the crowd. And Prohibition aligning with the Suffrage movement only resulted in the Suffrage movement being falsely placated to as a new target for Capitalism. Sell them ladies some cigarettes! Sell them some clothes-washing machinery! Let them know how much we respect their struggles by giving them things to go broke on!

(Apologies for any lack in logic- still working on 1st pot of coffee.)

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by pessimizer on Friday August 09, 2013 @12:49PM (#6186715)
Prohibition didn't fail; it was wildly successful.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by Torkild on Friday August 09, 2013 @10:32PM (#6189858)
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by Torkild on Friday August 09, 2013 @01:00PM (#6186796)
For Joe Kennedy maybe.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by bokchoi on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:54AM (#6186376)
This is brilliant: The gay rights movement should align with the privacy movement.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by jivatmanx on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:31PM (#6187847)
I think the writing is already on the wall in favor of that movement.

The biggest civil rights movement left is the War on Drugs, with soldiers routinely terrorizing minority communities, putting them in chains en-masse, taking their right to vote.

Considering the DEA's use of Laundered NSA intelligence, and the Black Caucus's support for the Amash Amendment (due to the FBI's historical relationship with the civil rights movement) this might be a good fit.

Re:We need an NRA for privacy by Dirlewanger on Friday August 09, 2013 @11:13AM (#6186116)
Hard to have the tech industry back it when most of it is taking part in the surveillance.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by smsm42 on Friday August 09, 2013 @01:52PM (#6187133)
Given that not taking part is not an option given current laws, hard to place the whole weight of the blame on them. They might have put a better fight, but the result - until the voters in general take notice - would be the same.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by rayiner on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:16PM (#6187741)
Do you think oil companies and banks look at a law, say "gee" and then throw their hands up in the air and cave?
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by smsm42 on Friday August 09, 2013 @03:36PM (#6187891)
Sometimes they do, sometimes they find ways around. So we need to give tech companies strong monetary incentive to find ways around surveillance state.
Re:We need an NRA for privacy by hga on Friday August 09, 2013 @02:19PM (#6187335)
And with the gag orders of NSLs, it's hard for the voters in general to take notice through actions of the companies.

Too much of this is secret, Star Chamber stuff for the voters to be easily involved.