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Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by coldcode on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:07PM (#6167744)
Having been there before, once they get to 70 or so people it all starts to falls apart. Once the founders no longer personally know all the people then structure comes in. By 200 people if you have no structure you are out of business. Also once you have lots of legal issues or are required to follow standard accounting practices or other picky stuff like that this nice holocracy will crater.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:16PM (#6167816)
Dunbar's number. I frequently quote 150 people as the breaking point, though it's a little less precise, and depends on the strength of the leader and organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mortenjorck on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:35PM (#6167940)
I should think a Dunbar-compatible company size would be well under 150 – Dunbar's number suggests the total number of people an individual can relate to at any point, so unless most of the employees have no relationships outside the office, I'd start at under half that.

Incidentally, that would put the number around the 70 quoted in the grandparent comment.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:38PM (#6167958)
Good point. CEOs tend to be good relators, so that biases the number up. They have to relate to a lot of externals, which would push the # down.

My guess is salespeople would utilize most of their attention externally. Perhaps junior engineers internally? (This could also explain why it's economical for companies to pay for dinner and sponsor happy hours)

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by tbrownaw on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:56PM (#6168078)
That 150 limit also involves your ability to keep track of people's relationships to eachother I think. Which would mean that you should be able to maintain relationships with significantly more people if they're divided into mostly-disjoint groups.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:02PM (#6168123)
Exactly - organizational hierarchy. :-) This is where the "There are no managers" can break down.

Another area that organizations struggle with is spending the time to put the structure in. They may say, "It takes more effort to put in structure, so while we want to be structured, let's just work harder as we go from 150 to 250, we'll solve it later when we're less busy" Then it goes from 250 to 400, then the next thing you know it's a 1600 person mess. :-)

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by thibauts on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:40PM (#6169370)
What if you break the company in two companies (or more) ? The problem may be trying to keep a flat looking small pyramid look small, when it is in fact starting to show its real face.

I don't know if it's even possible, but why not push a small group to become owners of their own shop, outsourcing work to them ? This might push those small groups to seek other connections to the external world and thus build strength and resiliency.

Of course this implies giving up the money. This is probably where the core tension lies. I guess many wouldn't even want to think about it.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:11AM (#6172539)
This is the idea for divisional structures. P&G does this by letting their brands fight it out for resources, creating the spirit of independent companies. It worked out for a while, but eventually they found the right structure was by product category. (Soap the category versus Tide the brand)

Semco (quoted elsewhere) was big on the "fund your best people's ideas" concept to cut loose companies. When you have to get external funding too, it forces discipline. The kerietsu (sp?) concept breaks down during tough times when partial owners subsidize the weaker units in the group. This happened in Japan.

This isn't a simple problem, because there's no one size fits all solution.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by weichi on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @12:35AM (#6170854)
It's a really interesting question, and one that economists have studied quite a bit - google "theory of the firm" for some details.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by yuhong on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @09:43PM (#6170321)
I think michaelochurch has pushed for open allocation, which solves the main problem in a similar way.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:06PM (#6168820)
You're assuming this is a consensus or self directed free for all style flat approach. It's not: http://holacracy.org/constitution.

There is structure, and there are explicit rules for how that structure is modified. There are rules that require decision making to be documented rather than held in your brain. Accountability is explicit. The entire system is designed to be scalable by a process that allows individual roles to transition to teams (or back) with as much nesting is required for the business at hand. On the whole the design is aggressive about making things explicit and systematized.

Whether it works or not I don't know, but it's clearly not the kind of free for all you're assuming.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by nomade0 on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @02:53AM (#6171259)
All this insight from reading the constitution? I'm impressed
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by jasonwatkinspdx on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @04:01AM (#6171452)
It just frustrates me that people pattern match trivial criticisms without actually learning anything about what they're criticizing.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by dnautics on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:17PM (#6167817)
there are some pretty dramatic counterexamples to your claim.

Valve, of course is the most well-known, but Semco is a large brazilian company that runs this way, as is Morning Star, a tomato processing company in California.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by notahacker on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @01:46PM (#6168003)
How dramatic are the counterexamples though?

A browse through Morning Star's website reveals job listings for defined roles. They're looking for (i) people with "a strong business background" and "an aspiration for senior leadership" to manage their finances, (ii) people who "likely have a meaningful formal education in related disciplines" to "coordinate", "train" and "identify proper operating procedures", and (iii) "hands on professionals" who need the "ability to read, write, and comprehend instructions" in addition to specific practical skills.

Sure, they might downplay rank and authority, but it doesn't sound like an organization without structure or de facto managerial roles.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by dnautics on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:43PM (#6168382)
fair point. I think corporations live on a spectrum of authoritarianism, and these are "far out in the distribution" but they aren't perfect, and I don't think in reality a perfectly flat corporation can exist because all employees have a natural range of skillsets. But by "dramatic" I meant dramatic relative to the parent post's claim about organizational size relative to success of the model.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:08PM (#6168158)
The Semco story is fascinating. I wish I knew some folks that worked there. The wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Semler) doesn't tell much but from what I remember of the book, they cut organizations free when they reach a certain size.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mikeleeorg on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:21PM (#6169265)
I used to work for Viant, a digital consultancy where they kept every office to about 100 (or was it 150?) employees. If they had to hire more employees, they'd spin off a new office. This was based on Dunbar's number (referenced elsewhere in this thread).
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mathattack on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @09:07AM (#6172513)
How did this work in terms of flexibility in the downturn? Did it help that the company was more nimble, or because of a lack of central control?

I'm curious because models that work in good times don't always work in tough times.

Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by mikeleeorg on Saturday August 17, 2013 @04:45PM (#6230330)
Sorry for the long delay in reply. Unfortunately, this "experiment" didn't reach a conclusion. The company ultimately folded.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by jeremymcanally on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @12:44AM (#6170886)
GitHub does just fine in a non-hierarchical setup even with pesky accounting controls in place. :) We're going to top 200 very soon (as in within a few weeks), and while we've had to make minor adjustments here and there, by and large we're still the same structure that Tom, Chris, PJ, and Scott setup at the start.
Re:How Medium is building a new kind of company with no mana... by ryancarson on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @11:06AM (#6173301)
Gore Associates (creators of Gore-Tex) have been operating as a no-manager company for over 50 years. They do over $2B in revenue per year and have 8,500+ employees. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/nov/02/gore-tex-tex...