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Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by mynameishere on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:00PM (#6071793)
The fact that the examples of disbelief given in such articles are always lefty pop-topics (climate change, Obama's birth certificate, death panels) is the real hint into why people don't examine things with pure rationality. I could lead off a similar article with "Why don't people realize that human races, to some degree, have different average intelligence stemming from genetics?" That would never be published in MotherJones, and honestly, if they had their way, I would go to prison just from saying that.

So why don't people "believe" in climate change? Because they realize it's a political, not a scientific, topic. It has winners and losers to the order of trillions of dollars. Science can't compete. Sorry.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by epistasis on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:32PM (#6071976)
>if they had their way, I would go to prison just from saying that.

Your post reminds me that this research seems to miss another way that people delude themselves: persecution-complexes.

Once you believe that others want to do bad things to you for your beliefs, you become far more entrenched. And ridiculous exaggerations such as yours allow you to more fully insulate yourself from facts: because you're under attack and your freedom is at risk, you have to protect yourself from these terrible people, and therefore, their beliefs.

>So why don't people "believe" in climate change? Because they realize it's a political, not a scientific, topic. It has winners and losers to the order of trillions of dollars.

How can you possibly say it's 'not scientific' when it's entirely scientific. The responses to climate change are political, but the topic itself is minimally political.

But you do enforce the point that people will cut themselves off from reasoning logically, if the conclusion is one they don't want to face. If your political buddies may be hurt, one is much more likely to fight the truth.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by csense on Friday July 19, 2013 @05:12PM (#6072991)
> persecution-complexes

My favorite example of this is how the left attacks and ostracizes those who dare to oppose the gay rights agenda in any way (two examples which immediately spring to mind are [1] [2], but there are many more).

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

I could go on at length about the importance of defending someone's right to state unpopular opinions even (or perhaps especially) if you disagree with them, but I hope HN'ers are smart enough to fill in the details of that argument themselves.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A_same-sex_marriage_c...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membershi...

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by arjie on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:53PM (#6072525)
Before you get downvoted and shadow-banned for posting this, I wish to thank you for making this accurate comment. I know we will both be captured by the FBI for taking this position, but it's important to speak truth to power.

Well done.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by GhotiFish on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:25PM (#6072356)
>How can you possibly say it's 'not scientific' when it's entirely scientific. The responses to climate change are political, but the topic itself is minimally political.

The topic becomes political the moment it has political ramifications. The bigger those ramifications are, the more of a political topic it is.

The parent knows it is a scientific topic, but when it's brought up, it's likely not. When it's argued, it's likely being argued by people who arn't looking at evidence, but looking at effect.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by Alex3917 on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:39PM (#6072038)
> Why don't people realize that human races, to some degree, have different average intelligence stemming from genetics?

Because it's a truthclaim that's outside of the ability of science to test, short of jesus coming back to earth with his fairy wand to endow you with platonic (and measurable) definitions of race, intelligence, average, and genetics. Whatever definitions you choose there is going to be some difference, even if that difference is zero, but that difference is going to differ wildly depending on what definitions you choose.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:56PM (#6072536)
"Outside the ability of science to test"? Nothing has been so thoroughly tested throughout the the world as IQ, and the measurements of climate data don't come close to IQ differences in terms of predictability. Whatever fuzziness there is in IQ measurements pales in comparison to the fuzziness in climate measurement, yet an outfit like Mother Jones would declare the former "unsettled" and the latter fully proven except to wacko right-wing "science denialists".
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by Alex3917 on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:00PM (#6072568)
IQ is not synonymous with intelligence, nor is IQ a measurement -- it's normalized by definition. In fact IQ itself isn't even a 'thing', since there are dozens of different tests.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:29PM (#6072769)
And yet there is a high and repeatable correlation among all those tests indicating that they are all proxies for some real "thing". Call it by whatever name you like--g, intelligence, IQ, whatever--but there is a real "thing" that causes these proxy tests to have highly predictable results.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by lindauer on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:25PM (#6071935)
Do you really think the vaccine-autism thing is a "lefty pop-topic"? As far as I can tell the sets of people who deny climate change science and those who deny vaccine-autism science are nearly disjoint.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by samatman on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:01PM (#6072191)
You will find legions on homeschoolers in the intersection, if you go looking.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by ZeroGravitas on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:25PM (#6071936)
Since you're someone who seems to belive in multiple human races could you give me a list of those races?
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by sublimit on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:38PM (#6072026)
Human races are not a matter of belief. Look at the people around you, look at different cultures and their trends across centuries. You're one of those people who could take a lesson from this article.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by danmaz74 on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:07PM (#6072616)
"Look at the people around you, look at different cultures": are you talking about races, or cultures?

By the way, when I was younger and there was very little immigration here in Italy, I looked around me and saw people - whole families - with blond hair, with dark hair, with red hair. I saw people (and families) with blue eyes, green eyes, hazel eyes. I saw very tall people, very short people, very smart people, pretty dumb people. And there were people with very pale skin, medium skin, and pretty dark skin. So, how many "races" where there already?

I'm under the impression that, when you talk about race, you really mean something like breed[1]. But there isn't selective breeding in humans - at least, that I'm aware of.

So, the question is not moot. If you have to define "race" scientifically, how do you go about it?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by anon1385 on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:02PM (#6072195)
In a discussion about public ignorance of science you are telling somebody the best way to get an answer to something is anecdotal evidence from looking at the people around them? On a topic where we know people have great difficulty objectively comparing things?

I honestly can't tell if you are joking or not.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by abstractbill on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:16PM (#6072289)
If you can't provide a basic list of races, and a repeatable procedure for determining which race(s) a given individual belongs to, then I don't see how you can claim this has anything to do with science.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:20PM (#6072710)
The Stanford and Berkeley admissions offices have basic lists of races and seem to think that they can determine the race of their applicants well enough that there is some justification for their race-based admissions policy. Are you claiming that what these major scientific research institutions are doing has nothing to do with science, that it's all, say, politics?
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by thesnider on Tuesday July 23, 2013 @01:20PM (#6091446)
It certainly has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with sociology/history and yes, even politics (shocking that a research institution would be involved in politics, I know).

There is, however, a systemic bias tied to things like skin color, or accent, and not at all associated with the ability of such applicants to do well in the institution. As a result of this systemic bias, applicants that would, were they white, be admitted in a heartbeat, are judged significantly more critically, so we attempt to correct this problem by giving them more 'points' or whatever in the admission process for possessing physical attributes that incorrectly hold them back.

I'm not sure what other system you would propose in such an environment?

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by mikeash on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:11PM (#6072253)
What race is the President of the United States?
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by logjam on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:13PM (#6072265)
> Human races are not a matter of belief....

Oh. Then please provide the list asked for, and while you're at it, list the genes and loci you use to classify members of a "race".

I mean, if human "races" are not a matter of belief but are a matter of science, that should be really easy for you and the parent commenter.

Right?

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:37PM (#6072427)
Ask any admissions officer at any elite university for the list he uses when defending the need for race-based admissions policy. Ask him what racial categories his major, world-class scientific research institution has chosen to put on their admissions application.

Ask any university humanities department whether their African-American Studies program isn't just as bogus as a Unicorn Studies program since neither group actually exists, and see what they say.

Ask the US federal government what categories they include on the census under "race".

Ask a liberal supporter of minority business set-aside programs for a list of who these so-called "minorities" are. Are they proposing setting aside contracts for businesses run by left-handed people, or do they have a different set of categories in mind? Ask them for their list of who should be given preference over whom.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by arjie on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:06PM (#6072610)
African-Americans (or blacks, in the context given) certainly exist as a group. The question is whether you can define them as a race.

To top it off, your first example is incredible. Universities usually lump all Asians into one category though most people would consider an Indian and a Japanese person to be of different race. If that is your list, you have done your argument a grievous injury.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @07:10PM (#6073531)
Well, here at Stanford they put Indians and Japanese in different categories, but that's hardly the point. These groupings represent political categorization based on racial categorization. I had thought the tongue-in-cheek nature of my reply would have been more obvious, but I'll make it more explicit: those who most strongly advocate the "no such thing as race" position tend to most strongly advocate race-based preferences when it suits their political agenda without, apparently, seeing a hint of irony. When someone who denies that races exist demands to see my list of races, I suggest he try using the list of races used by his own political allies.

There are different races in the sense that there are different colors on the visible electromagnetic spectrum. There is no "correct" categorization on the spectrum itself, but you can observe clearly different clusters in many situations. Take all the red, green, and blue elements from several video monitors and graph their frequencies and despite that fact that there is a lot of diversity, there won't be a uniform distribution. Three clusters will be easily visible, and you can call them clusters red, green, and blue. In the application, unlike the theoretical spectrum, these categories do exist.

History has clustered human beings, too. Nobody here really denies that humans have descended in a complex tree with lots of crossovers. There is no right way to categorize all leaves of the tree itself into sharp "races". Even so, historical accident has resulted in a lot of clustering of genetic affinity where members of a cluster share lots of relatively recent common ancestors but have mostly very distant common ancestors with members of other clusters. The fact that there are individuals of all sorts on the human tree doesn't mean that there is no clustering.

So Han Chinese, Central American Indians, Northern Europeans, and West Africans diverge long ago and don't intermix genetically for a thousand generations, then history brings them together recently in the Americas where they begin to interbreed.

Nothing wrong with that (at least IMO). Eventually this interbreeding may reduce the clustering to mere random clustering, but today there are still strong, clear clusters of genetic affinity. You can call the clusters races or call them foo, but they aren't just figments of the imagination. The admissions department at Stanford has no difficulty in most cases distinguishing an Indian from a Japanese by genetic affinity with other members of these groups. Whether they then make that two different racial preference categories or assign them to the same "Asian" group is just identity politics.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by mikeash on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:59PM (#6072564)
I recall a story of an expat living in South Africa with his black wife and their daughter, during Apartheid. I believe the very confused racial classification officials finally decided their daughter was "Indian".
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by sublimit on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:23PM (#6072335)
You're setting me up for a trap with the list thing - if I linked somewhere you'd simply say it was racist data and question the validity of the sources.

Instead I'll go for the route of scientific analogy. If dogs have races, why wouldn't humans? After all, humans are not biologically above or separate from animals. Why would basic evolution stop applying with humans?

Mind you, the existence of races doesn't have to imply inferiority or superiority between them. People seem to be afraid that would happen, so they throw the baby out with the bathwater by denying the whole concept of race altogether. Much like the article says.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by lukifer on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:30PM (#6072391)
Evolution does not work that way. It is a purely pass/fail system.

Also, since the invention of boats and planes, humans have been interbreeding like crazy, so it's pretty much ceasing to matter.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:03PM (#6072587)
So any justification for race-based admissions and government minority preferences programs is coming to an end, you'd say?
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by lukifer on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:14PM (#6072664)
Frankly, I consider it a different issue that has more to with history than evolution. I do believe such programs should end, but whether now or later is up for debate.

Of all the injustices in the world, extra scholarships for racial minorities hardly seems like a high priority, though. I'd rather cut through the Gordian Knot with free education for all (not as an entitlement, but rather as an investment).

We're about 1.5 generations away from race not mattering at all; young people simply don't care. Like so many vestiges of the old world, race-based entitlements will eventually disappear.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by splawn on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:27PM (#6071946)
Motherjones does have a left bias that makes me cringe sometimes, so i see where you are coming from.

Where I disagree with you is that while science can uncover issues (such as global warming or gmos) that can be politicized, that doesn't mean that the underlying questions are somehow no longer scientific. Politics can't compete. Sorry.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by dnautics on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:46PM (#6072087)
The society of science is inherently political. There's several issues - who controls the funding? Who controls the publication axis? Who controls academic appointments?

This is the problem with reifying "science". Even the "scientific method" itself - as in the way that it is practiced - is suspect. Why are certain conventions of running null controls the ones that are accepted versus others? Why in some instances is "eliminating variables" good (I often take the position that if you can consistently measure a result under sloppy conditions that means it's robust)

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by splawn on Friday July 19, 2013 @02:55PM (#6072148)
This is why we gain a consensus based on repeatability of results, peer-review and the ability for a model to make a prediction.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by dnautics on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:14PM (#6072662)
who gets to try to repeat those results? Experiments don't do themselves, and they're not free. Who gets to publish results so they can be peer-reviewed? Who sets the "consensus" about if a "model makes a prediction". Who gets to decide whose opinions are included and disincluded in this consensus? What is the punishment for making an incorrect prediction? Do you get to be disincluded from "consensi" for a spell if you get it wrong?
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by splawn on Friday July 19, 2013 @06:02PM (#6073263)
>who gets to try to repeat those results? Experiments don't do themselves, and they're not free.

Scientists are from all walks of life and funding comes from many different sources.

>Who gets to publish results so they can be peer-reviewed?

I think this is how it works... Anyone with a paper can submit it to a journal, then the journal decides if they are going to publish or not. There are many journals with different amounts of specialization and reputation.

> Who sets the "consensus" about if a "model makes a prediction". Who gets to decide whose opinions are included and disincluded in this consensus?

You will find the answer to those questions in the definition of the word "consensus".

> What is the punishment for making an incorrect prediction? Do you get to be disincluded from "consensi" for a spell if you get it wrong?

Its kind of like other communities (including this one)... the better your reputation the more seriously people take your input.

If you have a better approach to understanding the universe, I am extremely interested in what it could be. I do like the idea of open journals (aaron swartz style), but i honestly don't know what the ramifications would be.

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by adammil on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:04PM (#6072206)
The science itself is just a set of measurements and is apolitical. The politics start when people apply their conclusions to the results.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by dnautics on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:17PM (#6072682)
no measurement is free of bias. why did you choose a particular instrument to take your measurements on? Why did you use a bruker NMR instead of a varian NMR? Was it because one manufacturer is german and the other is american? Why did you report your measurement in kcal/mol instead of kJ/mol? How does that affect the ability of a reader to glean insight from your report? Why did you even do experiment X at all? Was it because a reviewer told you to do it otherwise it wouldn't be published? Was that reviewer a former post-doc of a vicious competitor, who had a petty dislike for your previous advisor that had to do with the way that he answered a question she posed at a conference fifteen years ago?

So in subtle (and usually insignificant but always nonzero ways) politics can creep into these "measurements".

Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by SiVal on Friday July 19, 2013 @04:39PM (#6072827)
Many people don't believe in climate change for the same reason many don't believe in the findings of cigarette companies' scientists or drug company scientists or Department of Agriculture scientists: they don't trust the institutions that employ the scientists not to filter their employees' results through their own institutional agendas.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by danmaz74 on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:19PM (#6072318)
Did you read the article to the end? It addresses this point.
Re:The Science of Why We Don’t Believe Science by snowwrestler on Monday July 22, 2013 @12:35PM (#6084797)
> I could lead off a similar article with "Why don't people realize that human races, to some degree, have different average intelligence stemming from genetics?" That would never be published in MotherJones

Because it is not a scientific statement.