News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by denzil_correa on Thursday July 18, 2013 @04:55PM (#6066424)
Apparently, one of the major reasons for bankruptcy has been population loss. Detroit has lost 250,000 people in the last decade. What has particularly happened in Detroit that has led to migration of population?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by wmil on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:13PM (#6066547)
It's extremely politically incorrect to talk about, but Detroit never really recovered from the 1967 riots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot

Things got bad. The insurrection act was invoked. The US military was sent in. Black-white relations have been awful since.

Detroit has faced white flight like no other city. From 1.5 million in 1950 to 75 thousand in 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by hampelm on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:30PM (#6066987)
The riots are part of the story, but absolutely not the start. Population was significant declining before the riots. A number of choices, including a long history of racial segregation in housing before the 60s combined with US housing policy (the GI Bill) to create strong incentives for people to build new houses outside of the city. That, combined with a lack of dense housing in the city, created cascading problems that are difficult to recover from.

A good source on this topic is Thomas Sugrue's "The Origins of the Urban Crisis".

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rayiner on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:07PM (#6066497)
Detroit's de-population is a tremendously sad story. The city peaked in the heyday of the U.S. auto industry at 1.8 million people, and is now around 700,000. The decline of the U.S. auto industry meant jobs left the city, and along with those jobs most of the middle class people. This was compounded by white flight in the 1960's and 1970's (and as a result the city proper is 80% black even though the overall Detroit metro area is 70% white). Fully a third of households in the city are below the poverty line.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:26PM (#6066639)
It's not just the auto industry; Detroit was a US industrial hub, and had a diverse manufacturing employment base that included defense spending, textiles, energy, food... the whole Rust Belt got shellacked by deindustrialization. I might go out on a limb and say that if anything, the auto industry kept Detroit alive. Look what happened to Gary for a more grim example.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by djKianoosh on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:10PM (#6066527)
Did the bailout help?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rayiner on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:15PM (#6066564)
It probably stopped the city from collapsing entirely into the dust, which would have been sad.

Detroit was a symbol of what was great about America in the 1950's and 1960's. In 1960, it had the highest per-capita income in the U.S. It was built on American technology and American manufacturing prowess and an industry that brought wealth and good jobs to ordinary Americans, not just the top 1% (either financially or intellectually).

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by pravda on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:45PM (#6067051)
Oh no. No no no.

It was built on the auto cartel, which robbed consumers all across the country to keep the Grosse Point estates of the automobile executives well appointed and manicured.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by sghill on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:36PM (#6066701)
It'd be interesting to see some research on that. Most of the plants I'm aware of aren't actually in Detroit proper, but the metro area.

A quick glance over the list of GM factories[1] shows just one assembly plant in the city. Chrysler has a bit more going on[2] in Detroit. Of course, this doesn't take into account all of the suppliers, which is a huge omission. In my experience growing up in the area, it wasn't so uncommon for someone to be working for a company whose sole customer was one of the Big Three.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_General_Motors_factorie...

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chrysler_factories

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by fnordfnordfnord on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:58PM (#6066834)
It's not just the big three auto plants. There is all of the ancillary plants that make the parts and sub-assemblies. Raw materials, Logistics, Accounting, Foodservice, and everything else that goes along with productive activity.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by paulfedory on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:42PM (#6066747)
One thing to note is that many people moved outside of the city limits into the suburbs, which including Detroit has a population of something like 4 million people (ie. Wayne, Oakland, Macomb counties). The population of the city of Detroit proper is much less than that, like 750,000.

Michigan has a very strong "home rule" law which concerns the annexing of these suburbs which prevents Detroit from amalgamating these suburbs, which has led to decline in tax revenue for the city proper. As people move out to the suburbs, the city can't sustain itself due to declining tax revenue.

Many other cities have amalgamated recently. Toronto, for example.

Here's an interesting read: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/03/dont-shr...

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by HarryHirsch on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:01PM (#6066458)
The 1967 Detroit riot happened.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by denzil_correa on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:02PM (#6066465)
How is that related to population migration between 2000-10?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:13PM (#6066545)
Detroit has been in continual (statistical) decline since the riots.

In the decades following the riots, the middle class black population followed the white population into the suburbs.

At the same time, the industrial economy of the rust belt collapsed.

Then the auto industry collapsed.

Any one of these things could set in motion a vicious circle (people leave, local services become underfunded, crime increases, property values decline, more people leave) but Detroit got hit continuously for ~4 decades.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by dennisgorelik on Friday July 19, 2013 @03:10AM (#6068737)
It's not that auto industry collapsed, it's auto industry dumped these cities for poor performance.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by jbooth on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:06PM (#6066493)
It's a somewhat racist simplification of things.

The 67 riots were a big part of what provoked 'white flight' from detroit to the burbs. Of course, detroit was already losing population before that and the trend didn't speed up overall until much later, when the car companies started struggling. As always, it's more about economics than it is about race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Detroit

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rayiner on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:25PM (#6066632)
> It's a somewhat racist simplification of things.

Housing and education are the two remaining bastions of socially acceptable racism and classism in American society. Middle class white families don't want to move into a city that's 80% black and 30% below the poverty line. There is a lot of talk about the revitalization of downtown Detroit. Take a look at this demographic map (blue = blacks, red = whites) and see if you can guess what neighborhoods those yuppies are moving into: http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_impact/photo/detroit-rac....

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:29PM (#6066654)
Middle class black families don't want to (really: won't) move into a city with high crime and low employment prospects. We attribute a racial dynamic to Detroit because of the label "white flight", but it's the label that's racist; the dynamic transcends race.

You see the same thing in Oak Park, on the outskirts of the West Side of Chicago, where I live. If you can get out of Humboldt Park and North Lawndale, you do: the schools are better and the neighborhood is safer. And the move from Lawndale to Oak Park doesn't even change your employability, unlike a move out of Detroit.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by jordanb on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:28PM (#6066973)
You're obviously right that anyone with means will try to leave a high crime neighborhood. But "white flight" was absolutely a thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbusting

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by angersock on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:52PM (#6066795)
Had family who lived in that area during the late 60s--do you have any thoughts on why Chicago bounced back and Detroit did not?

My hunch would be being less invested in the auto industry and more in general trade and banking.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:05PM (#6066874)
Exactly that; Chicago has a diverse economy that isn't as dependent on manufacturing; Chicago is also a finance center and a transportation hub, neither of which hurt.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by pessimizer on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:31PM (#6066999)
It's not really just the label that's racist - I wish I could hand you the citation, but I'm having trouble finding it online. IIRC, there was a study dating from the 60s that showed that when a neighborhood reached somewhere around 10-15% black, white people started moving out. This was taken advantage of by real estate investors, who would move a few middle-class black families onto a block (possibly taking a loss, because completely white neighborhoods aren't attractive to most black families), starting a process of buying at a discount the houses of the white families who were desperate to leave, and then reselling to middle-class black families who often had higher incomes than the white families they were replacing. In this way, the replacement of white families by black families would snowball.

Of course, the appeal of those neighborhoods to middle-class black people would also drop, because as the whites left, the neighborhood lost its luster as a symbol of achieving the middle-class for black people. Prices start to drop to the level where less than middle class people can move in (to what would still be an aspirational neighborhood to black people who weren't in the middle class.)

Then the city starts to withdraw services (the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s city), and, as in Chicago for example, builds highways and other developments as firebreaks to stop the expansion of these new black neighborhoods. Eventually many sections start to go into serious decline, and middle-class black people either leave, or manage to form exclusive enclaves within them.

tl;dr Humboldt Park and North Lawndale didn't originally have high crime and bad schools, that was a process that was begun by white flight.

I always like to cite the example of the neighborhood I grew up in in Chicago: Avalon Park, where "the average educational level increased, while the poverty rate decreased from 6.1% to 5.1% between 1960 and 1970."[1] The fact that black people were an improvement to the neighborhood didn't slow white flight down a whit - we moved there in 1978, when I was 2, and when I entered school at 5 there was a single white person that attended Avalon Park Elementary School. His name was Patrick, and his stepfather was black. I only ever saw one white person in that neighborhood who wasn't a teacher at that school. It was a windy day, and she was walking in front of Sears on 79th, trying to keep her scarf from blowing away. It was 1989.

If you care, I'll find the reference at some point - but I couldn't find it online, and most of my books are packed away in a fashion where it would take me at least an hour to find anything specific. If this year is like last year, I'll find cause to wade into the stacks two or three times and I'll keep an eye out for it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Park,_Chicago

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by jmathai on Thursday July 18, 2013 @07:23PM (#6067238)
+1 on that reference.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rayiner on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:36PM (#6066700)
That's also true, but on the flip side I think what we're seeing in Chicago is that the middle class black folks are more reluctant to leave for the suburbs and try to stick it out longer in those neighborhoods than the middle class white folks.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by cpeterso on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:41PM (#6066733)
What do the green and yellow dots in the map represent?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by jlgreco on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:52PM (#6066794)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/sets/7215762635414957...

Here are some more maps for other cities. Detroit is kind of expected but I am surprised that many of those cities are as segregated as they are. There is a legend in there too.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rayiner on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:47PM (#6066768)
Green is asian, yellow is hispanic.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by zalew on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:30PM (#6066985)
what's that red spot in the middle of blue?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by dubfan on Thursday July 18, 2013 @07:12PM (#6067176)
That's Hamtramck, a city that was mostly settled by Eastern Europeans but also now has many immigrants from the Middle East and South Asia. It is technically a separate city from Detroit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamtramck

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by zalew on Thursday July 18, 2013 @07:50PM (#6067353)
> Hamtramck festivals > Pączki Day

hah

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:14PM (#6066555)
The only thing racist about attributing Detroit's decline to "white flight" is the name "white flight", since black families were also very much a part of white flight.
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by jbooth on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:18PM (#6066584)
Lots of cities had race riots in the 60s. Lots of cities were rough during the crack epidemic, too. Most are doing great these days.

Looking past the collapse of the auto industry (which coincided with the greatest population decline in 2000-2010), to riots 50 (!) years ago as the sole reason for decline strikes me as having the answer in mind before hearing the question. YMMV.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by 554594bc on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:54PM (#6066811)
>Lots of cities had race riots in the 60s. Lots of cities were rough during the crack epidemic, too.

Not a lot of cities have had black mayors continuously since 1974.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by tptacek on Thursday July 18, 2013 @06:03PM (#6066864)
Were any of those cities of Detroit's size, and did they too lose double digit percentages of their majority white populations?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by mgkimsal on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:09PM (#6066519)
"The 67 riots were a big part of what provoked 'white flight' from detroit to the burbs."

Coleman Young did his best to keep it going a decade later.

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by mgkimsal on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:08PM (#6066513)
There's a generational aspect.

As throngs left Detroit in the 60s through 80s, they started families, but not in Detroit. As people died off in Detroit, there was no younger population to keep the numbers up.

It's not all that, but some people moving out in the 2000s (me, for one) made the % drop larger. Had there still been 2 million in Detroit like years past, a 10% drop would have hurt but not that much (and just given the economies around a population that large, it probably wouldn't have even dropped that much).

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by rorrr2 on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:54PM (#6066809)
Actually Detroit population started declining in the 50's, and the riot didn't really accelerate the decline:

http://www.mybudget360.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/detroi...

Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by bagels on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:04PM (#6066479)
Let's try: Chronic unemployment?
Re:Detroit files for Chapter 9 bankruptcy amid staggering de... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 18, 2013 @05:05PM (#6066486)
The decline in businesses/industry that said population could be employed at.