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Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by josteink on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:16PM (#6013398)
As a European, I'm utterly and totally ashamed that nobody here actually offered him asylum. None.

This lack of action speaks so very clearly that whatever nasty the US is doing now, entire Europe is in on it already. Sans the actual European people under total surveillance ofcourse.

It seriously makes you wonder what's going on behind closed doors in European governments and EU offices. It can't be good, and it needs to be rooted out pronto.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by adcoelho on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:29PM (#6013477)
I was specially ashamed to hear that my country had blocked Bolivia's President plane. An action that was absolutely uncalled for and for which we had no explanation from our government.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by znowi on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:29PM (#6013478)
I'm with you. But then, the EU has been under the US boot for a long time now. And as Snowden's revelations show they knew about PRISM and at least some participated.

Real shame though that even a social oriented society like Europe can't do a thing about it.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:09PM (#6013780)
Well, European citizens will have to get off their butts and get used to actually go out and vote for different people, now.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by barrkel on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:26PM (#6013458)
IMO it's more to do with how nobody can afford to piss off the US so much.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by icebraining on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:20PM (#6013840)
@PanickedOmlette: You're hellbanned; don't ask me why, I just read HN with the option to see dead users.

Regarding your post, you're wrong about the MEP salaries:

Article 10 of the new Statute sets the amount of the MEPs salary as 38,5 % of the basic salary of a judge at the Court of Justice of the European Communities, thus currently €7,665 before tax.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...

Besides, I'm pretty sure the EP doesn't rule over the airspace of the member states.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by mtrimpe on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:30PM (#6013898)
If I'm correct the €30k figure refers to the budget they get to spend of which a large percentage gets spent on (relatively) frivolous expenses.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:48PM (#6013612)
Yes, the US can threaten every EU nation individually, with the help of the remaining EU nations. The punishment is isolation and it's called playing nations off against each other. It's a nice game theory thingy.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by smutticus on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:24PM (#6013445)
As a fellow EU citizen I completely agree, but am not particularly surprised. And don't feel that ashamed because as citizens we're only tangentially responsible for the crimes of our governments.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by jacquesm on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:47PM (#6013607)
As citizens we are 100% responsible for the crimes of our governments.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by BjoernKW on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:05PM (#6013755)
Sorry but this simply ain't true. Some European government bodies aren't even elected democratically and even as for those which are you can hardly blame the people for the crimes committed by their governments because most of those are committed behind closed doors.

Yes, the majority of the electorate might be gullible or even downright stupid but they're not responsible for the crimes committed in the name of people. Unfortunately, those who really are responsible won't be tried in court because the rule of law doesn't apply to them.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:32PM (#6013915)
It's the Principal-Agent problem:

The citizen is the Principal who mandates the Agent (the government) to do something for him.

Now, if the Agent fucks up (and I'm sure we all agree that this has been the case worldwide for a very long time now), it becomes the responsibility of the Principal to replace the Agent with the right one. And this applies not just to single politicians but to entire political structures.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by lmm on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:13PM (#6013804)
I didn't vote for them. If I tried violent revolution I'd a) fail b) be killed. How can I be responsible?
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by jacquesm on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:27PM (#6013887)
Let's just say that it is complicated?

A slightly longer explanation: by being complacent you (and I) accept responsibility for a fractional share in what is being done in our name. We can't directly change anything about it but every time we vote we have the responsibility to try to improve things as much as possible. If we collectively fail at doing that then we all (not just those that voted for the status quo) are implicated.

Choosing to avoid revolution (if you think that is the only option, which I disagree with, for instance, you could start a political party, you could protest, you could strike, you could emigrate and so on) is the same as taking responsibility.

Simply abdicating responsibility while still taking part without any push-back against perceived injustice makes you an accomplice, like it or not.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by lmm on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @06:26PM (#6016086)
I tried protesting too. It didn't seem to make any difference.

I can't see how a new political party would help, there are already some that align with my views (and for whom I voted) but they weren't elected. Starting another one would surely just split their vote further.

Striking would only hurt my employer, who seem to have very little to do with it. It's pretty impractical given that no union exists in my industry (and yes, I have tried to form one; no-one seemed interested).

Where could I emigrate that doesn't act the same way?

I've tried to push back, really I have. I can't see how to change things. It can't be my responsibility when I have no control over it.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by moheeb on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:02PM (#6013730)
I had nothing to do with JFK's assassination.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by jpdoctor on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:31PM (#6013496)
> As a European, I'm utterly and totally ashamed that nobody here actually offered him asylum. None.

Just imagine how the self-aware Americans (US) feel.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by Zaytes on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:12PM (#6014191)
My patriotism took a giant hit with USAPATRIOT. Its been in an abject freefall since Citizens United.

I used to venomously ridicule people who suggested 9/11 was a false flag event. As time has gone on, I find it more and more likely that they let it happen to justify perpetual war and the fullscale rollout of the Panopticon.

We live in a fascist state.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by tjoff on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:25PM (#6013451)
Pissing the US off would probably be enough reason enough for many European countries to not offer asylum anyway. Not that that says anything about whether there are other reasons as well.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by Kurtz79 on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:29PM (#6013479)
As a European, I'm not surprised in the least.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:45PM (#6013597)
Europe is no longer an independent entity, it's more and more becoming the colonies of the US. We have very real facts that make this obvious:

1. the President's plane incident

2. the absence of honest outrage on the part of EU politicians regarding all the recent news

3. the direct surveillance collaboration with the NSA

4. the fact that the NSA is allowed to build multi-billion surveillance centers in Germany

5. refusal of help to Edward Snowden

Please add your observations to this list.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by Kurtz79 on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:53PM (#6013664)
Europe has not been an independent entity since the end of WW2 and the beginning of the cold war.

Unless you think that is normal for a country to have permanent military bases of a foreign power in its own territory.

I'm not judging or complaining, it's just the way it is. At some point in history, decisions were made about Europe's own place in the world that put it under US sphere of influence, and these decisions have important consequences to this day.

It can be argued that European countries traded part of their own sovereignity in exchange for security, protection and economic progress.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by epsylon on Wednesday July 10, 2013 @03:52AM (#6018033)
Europe is merely a free trade agreement between various independent country, and a common currency between a subset of these countries.

> Unless you think that is normal for a country to have permanent military bases of a foreign power in its own territory.

These bases are negociated not through the European Union, but through NATO agreements (AFAIK), and on a bilateral basis.

For example, there are no American bases in France since the 60's.

> I'm not judging or complaining, it's just the way it is. At some point in history, decisions were made about Europe's own place in the world that put it under US sphere of influence, and these decisions have important consequences to this day.

Western European countries, maybe, but please remember that Eastern Europe has been under Russian influence since the cold war (and many of them still are).

> It can be argued that European countries traded part of their own sovereignity in exchange for security, protection and economic progress.

Some of them traded a bit of their military sovereignty (the first and foremost being Germany), but as far as I know most of these countries are politically sovereign.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @12:59PM (#6013710)
> Unless you think that is normal for a country to have permanent military bases of a foreign power in its own territory.

Correct, that and the NSA infrastructure on European soil has to vanish.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by Zaytes on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:57PM (#6014058)
> Correct, that and the NSA infrastructure on European soil has to vanish.

The odds of either of those things occurring are perilously near zero

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:05PM (#6014119)
Don't take this personally (you're in good company...):

We need to STOP saying:

1. "I'm so not surprised"

2. "That has zero chance of happening"

What we NEED to do is:

1. Think about things we CAN do

2. Find others to EXECUTE these things

3. TALK about this action

Anything else is just demotivating people. And that will only make things worse.

EDIT: To the downvoters - that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by Zaytes on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:20PM (#6014274)
OK, we can widely adopt encryption and use alternets whenever possible, and attempt to affect technological activism. That is feasible and should be done as swiftly and as widely as possible. Evangelize these measures to the less technically inclined people in your life.

But as far as "removing" US military and intelligence presence from Europe - that will literally never happen, as all of Europe is entirely complicit in our presence and information gathering activities.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by weland on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:30PM (#6013902)
As an European resident, I definitely agree to your assessment. By intuition, I'd say an important role is played by the fact that some European countries, members of EU even, are also NATO members, but I find it somewhat difficult to structure my arguments right now.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by dnautics on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:10PM (#6014164)
Your list 2-5 is accurate, but the President's plane incident is bunk. Apparently Morales didn't have any fuel so he put on a little show play to get some attention. He didn't even take off from the same airport as snowden. While the US intelligence service is incompetent, I don't think they are that stupid.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/05/edward-snow...

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by hedonist on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:34PM (#6014361)
Apparently Morales didn't have any fuel so he put on a little show play to get some attention.

Apparently you need to do some basic research into the circumstances regarding the harassment of the Bolivian presidential flight.

Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by kimlelly on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @02:19PM (#6014253)
:-) I just read this article - nothing personal, but I can't call that "journalism"; I find it really hard to take it seriously.
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by dnautics on Wednesday July 10, 2013 @02:06AM (#6017745)
Re:NSA leaker Edward Snowden 'accepts asylum in Venezuela'? by contingencies on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @01:38PM (#6013946)
6. The hosting of SWIFT in Belgium, and SIX Interbank Clearing in Switzerland, who are both pinnacles of the inefficient, rent-seeking, environmentally and socially irresponsible, protectionist financial establishment and its surveillance abuses. The former's main guilt is in centralizing data on all global interbank transfers and passing it off to allied governments (particularly the US, even after rage against matters surfaced in the EU parliament, a 'SWIFT2' was designed, and new regulation nominally put in place... in response, the very structure of the EU conveniently changed - creating the Directorate of Home Affairs (sound like "Homeland Security" to anyone else?), which rubber-stamped their surveillance requests, and actively sidelined the European Data Protect Supervisor, who were tasked with protecting citizens against such abuses). [Note: The above was volunteered on official letterheard in response to FOIA, straight from the agency in question]. Longtime aspiring to be perceived as politically non-partisan (self-described as an "international cooperative"), they shred any pretensions recently to ban Iran outright from the entire network in a move even the incoming director shockingly described as "unprecedented" (reading between the lines, I believe he perhaps personally honestly didn't support it and his hand was forced). The second operates as a deniable financial NGO on the part of the global financial establishment for petty protectionism with minimal transparency.

7. The illegal rendition of The Pirate Bay's anakata from Cambodia to Swedish solitary confinement (himself a Swedish citizen) - without charge or process - for a term said to constitute torture even under UN definition.