News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by jerf on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @12:51PM (#5979122)
It seems weirder to me than that. Let us take it as a given that there really is a stereotype threat and/or that women are systematically discriminated against with regard to acquiring math skills. Let us take it as a given that damage is really being done. The natural conclusion is that regardless of what name is put on the top of the test, the women should still do worse, because they really are worse at math at the time the test is being given, which is to say, after 15-20 years of systematic discrimination. If the discrimination is effective, then by definition it must mean they really are worse. If they aren't worse, then the discrimination is either ineffective, or women are naturally better at math and the discrimination is holding them back (a position which would be quite complicated to establish and defend).

If the damage can be undone by merely putting a different name on the top of the test, then that strongly implies that the putative damage is itself illusory. If the damage can be wiped away so easily, then it can't have been that bad in the first place. If this is the extent of the "stereotype threat", then it's obviously not holding them back all that much if even so their real skill is equal to the men's.

I can't help but think that this study was indeed ideologically driven, and in the zeal the authors had to prove their point about how women aren't worse than men, they didn't think about the fact this accidentally "proves" that the discrimination can't be that significant. But perhaps it is just a neutral study performed out of sheer curiosity.

And just to make it perfectly clear, I am taking their own logic on their own merits. I'm not inserting my own opinions here, excepting on the question of whether there was potentially an ideological drive here. (My opinion doesn't really fit on this axis at all either way.)

Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by RodericDay on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @03:07PM (#5980058)
>Let us take it as a given that there really is a stereotype

>the putative damage is itself illusory

>My opinion doesn't really fit on this axis at all either way.

lmao. here's a quote for you:

“It was, of course, nothing more than sexism, the especially virulent type espoused by male techies who sincerely believe that they are too smart to be sexists.”

― Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by jerf on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @04:05PM (#5980395)
You misunderstand. I think there probably is some bias against women going into mathematics. When someone say "let us take this as true for the purpose of argument", it does not mean that it isn't really true. It means simply that in this post, we're not going to analyze the possibility of whether that is true or not, we're just going to assume it.

There's also a class of people who are so smart they see sexism uniformly everywhere, even where it isn't. You're being a jerk, not proving how wonderfully not sexist you are. Refusing to even consider the possibility that someone isn't sexist is itself a form of discrimination, and I reject your attempt to pigeonhole me in an effort to make yourself look holier-than-thou.

I'm also not going to fall into the trap of endlessly justifying myself, so go ahead, have the last word.

Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by cantos on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @04:50PM (#5980648)
jerf started from two propositions, 1) "a sterotype exists" 2) "the study is correct" he argued that these propositions imply the proposition "a stereotype does not exist." This contradicts the starting propositions. If you accept his argument then one of the starting propositions must be false. It could be the first, the second or both. He has not said which he believes to be true or false so your response is groundless.
Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by kaitai on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @03:10PM (#5980073)
I'd disagree on your conclusion in paragraph 2 for the following reason: it's not that there is damage done to women's mathematical abilities, it's that there is damage done to their psyches. That damage can be wiped away by "changing identity" because they can perform honestly without messing up their position in society. We can surmise that there is some adaptive reason women don't perform as well under their own names, and from that conclude that there may be difficult-to-see benefits to "playing dumb" if you're female.

Discrimination is no longer the scary evil force you seem to think it is. It's the pause that precedes the quick end of the conversation after you say you're a mathematician (female or male), it's the changing of the rules by which you evaluate someone depending on whether they are male or female, it's the slight cognitive dissonance that leads someone not to talk to a black physicist quite as long (what am I supposed to say?!)... that subtle social cue that you're not what you are supposed to be. People on the street, at the bank, at the library are just plain nicer to me when I'm performing the pretty female role and are just plain not nicer, or ignore me, when I'm looking ugly or smart. Is it so far to stretch that I might perform better on that math test when I don't have to own it and put my name on it? There is no cost when it's not my name.

Re:Study: Women performed better on a math test when using s... by jerf on Tuesday July 02, 2013 @04:10PM (#5980421)
To be clear, in my second paragraph, I'm referring to true damage to math skills. There's a world of difference between "woman are being discriminated against and it's destroying their ability to learn math" and "women are being discriminated against and they don't like to show off the skills they have". In particular, and this is important, the solutions are different. Although also the severity is different, too, which is also important in deciding what to do about it.

One of the problems I have with this whole debate is that people are so quick to jump down your throat if you don't simply parrot the party line, even when you mostly agree with it, that it isn't even permitted to deeply examine the problem. Nevertheless, step one, as in all engineering, is to figure out the problem. If you insist on short-circuiting that step, your solutions won't work. That doesn't change magically because it's a hot-potato topic.