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Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by Alex3917 on Sunday June 30, 2013 @09:44PM (#5968162)
"Not only do I think it is meaningful to compare the harm done by drugs as they are actually used, it is necessary. Nutt's research is from society's perspective - that's why it spends more time on how people actually use drugs than how much harm would be done if they used them appropriately."

The problem is that how drugs are used is almost entirely dependent on the public policy surrounding them. E.g. when coffee was an illegal drug, you had many people abusing it similar to what we think of as a stereotypical heroin addict today. So how can you set future public policy based on the societal harms of a drug without taking into account current public policy, when those harms are mostly determined by current public policy? Especially since the study (and his marketing of it) portrays these rankings as being objective and scientific.

And even if you were to think of it as a measure of societal harm caused by individual drugs, it doesn't even make any sense for that. E.g. there are no objective measures of the number of users, the amount of harm caused per user, the amount of harm each user causes to society, etc. It's only the opinions of a bunch of random people about these things. How is this supposed to be more accurate than getting actual data?

Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by JumpCrisscross on Sunday June 30, 2013 @09:59PM (#5968205)
"The problem is that how drugs are used is almost entirely dependent on the public policy surrounding them"

Policy seeks to move from where we are forward. Nutt advocates "forward" be measured in minimising aggregate, actual harm. The logic is that since we do not know precisely how biology, psychology, sociology, economics, and policy interact we can start by observing the entire system and seeing where problems are bubbling up.

"It's only the opinions of a bunch of random people about these things. How is this supposed to be more accurate than getting actual data?"

Experts who have looked at the data are coming to a different consensus than our policy makers. That is powerful. I don't know how to integrate data including bioavailability, legal availability, neurotoxicity, safety ratio, etc. But having toxicologists' opinions juxtaposed with policy makers' signals that I should start looking deeper.

Characterising the 2010 paper as "the opinions of a bunch of random people" is disingenuous - a panel of experts weights factors including safety ratio and probability of physical dependence in producing their conclusion. We should not fault the use of estimates with appropriate error margins in lieu of perfect data.

Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by anigbrowl on Monday July 01, 2013 @03:42AM (#5969279)
when coffee was an illegal drug, you had many people abusing it similar to what we think of as a stereotypical heroin addict today

Highly questionable. Coffee was made illegal in the Ottoman empire because people in coffee shops were suspected of sedition, not because they were having caffeine ODs and dying. Comparing it to heroin is just silly, and I say that as a supporter of legalization.

Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by Alex3917 on Monday July 01, 2013 @09:09AM (#5970333)
"Coffee was made illegal in the Ottoman empire because people in coffee shops were suspected of sedition, not because they were having caffeine ODs and dying. Comparing it to heroin is just silly, and I say that as a supporter of legalization."

I think you're right about why coffee was illegal. Regardless, when coffee was illegal my understanding is that every Thursdays there was an event where they drank as much coffee as they could, to the point where there was actually a very real chance of ODing, in order to enter a mystical state. I can't find a real source right now, but here is an unsourced reference at least:

http://www1.lavazza.com/corporate/en/coffeculture/legends/ar...

Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by btilly on Monday July 01, 2013 @04:05AM (#5969326)
...when coffee was an illegal drug, you had many people abusing it similar to what we think of as a stereotypical heroin addict today...

Did you mean tobacco?

Re:Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011) by Alex3917 on Monday July 01, 2013 @09:13AM (#5970355)
No I meant coffee. But tobacco was the similar. Back when it was banned by the pope people were using it for entheogenic purposes. Essentially they would be completely fucked up for 2-3 days, also to the point where they were very near death.