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Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by tome on Saturday June 29, 2013 @09:03AM (#5962261)
> This ideal is all but gone.

Doesn't slavery demonstrate that this ideal never even existed in the first place?

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by crusso on Saturday June 29, 2013 @10:45AM (#5962507)
It demonstrated that they had the right ideals but were unable to put them into practice in one fell swoop. As Lincoln pointed out - the framework of the Declaration was an ideal to be pursued. The Founders' wisdom in what they put into motion necessitated the eventual end of slavery.

There's a big difference between moving toward the Declaration as an ideal as we still were in the time from the Founding until the early 1900s vs completely running away from those ideals as we have since.

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by philwelch on Saturday June 29, 2013 @10:54AM (#5962537)
Some of the Founders more than others. While many of them came from the North, where there were no slaves and slavery was generally unpopular, and some of the others like Washington and Jefferson held slaves but felt bad about it, there was a large enough contingent of Southern politicians who just plain favored slavery and had to be politically negotiated with. If you define "the Founders" as "everyone who attended the Continental Congresses or the Constitutional Convention", many of them were idealists, many of them had a vision, but many others were just ordinary politicians with their own agendas.

This also holds true for all American political history from the founding of the country to the Civil War.

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by jivatmanx on Saturday June 29, 2013 @11:38AM (#5962694)
It's also important to remember that this was before the industrial revolution, when almost the entire economy was agricultural, thus the South was far more powerful than the north.

The Civil War started right after the industrial revolution ended. By this time, the balance of power was greatly in favor of the North.

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by philwelch on Sunday June 30, 2013 @12:07AM (#5964672)
It's also worth pointing out that one of the early products of the industrial revolution--the cotton gin--made slavery far more cost-effective. It would have died out by natural economic causes otherwise.
Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by crusso on Saturday June 29, 2013 @11:06AM (#5962576)
Agreed. There will never be 100% admirable behavior in any person or political body.

The amazing thing about the Founders, though, was that the admirable forces were able to write the documents.

Compare that to today's "gang of eight" senators who created the immigration bill. That thing was a disaster before they had their first meeting. They had a unique chance to create solid immigration law, but have f'd it up beyond all reasoning.

The Founding documents were philosophical and political works of art. Where are works such as they coming form in today's society? Where are they being enacted into law?

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by taway2012 on Saturday June 29, 2013 @10:22AM (#5962455)
I wish I had some authoritative references for this. Hopefully somebody else can write authoritatively or correct me. Based on my readings, slavery was always a problematic aspect of America.

Even the founders debated whether to abolish slavery, but ultimately punted because they felt uniting the states was more important.

That is, it was a tough compromise.

Take a look at the book The Long March (about Lincoln). There was a several-decade long movement before 1864 to abolish slavery.

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by elwin on Saturday June 29, 2013 @11:16AM (#5962616)
William Freehling's Road to Disunion covers the topic thoroughly. Most of the founders expected slavery to die away gradually. The idea that it should remain permanently didn't appear for another 50 years and was never universal, even in the Deep South.

The book also explores the tensions between slavery and American ideals, and the many complications the tensions produced.

Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by krapp on Saturday June 29, 2013 @10:41AM (#5962499)
An ideal can exist, but take time to be fully realized. It's not as though slavery were universally accepted in America even at the height of its use.
Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by jacoblyles on Saturday June 29, 2013 @09:18PM (#5964340)
I can't understand the historical perspective that trashes the founders because of slavery. After fighting a long guerrilla rebellion and forming a new nation with a novel form of government, were they supposed to immediately turn on southern slave owners in another bloody war? If so, the American republic would have lasted maybe 10 years.
Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by foobarqux on Saturday June 29, 2013 @12:20PM (#5962859)
And Native Americans. They weren't people either.
Re:Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful fo... by huherto on Saturday June 29, 2013 @10:50AM (#5962525)
Perhaps the founding fathers left their aspirations on words and letters hoping that a braver, future generation will make it happen for real.