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Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by rbehrends on Friday June 28, 2013 @06:28PM (#5960642)
The problem is not the name, but the ridiculous overdesign of which it is a symptom.

At which point I bring you the story of the king's toaster [1] (which is a cautionary tale, not an aspirational story, just in case that should be unclear to anybody).

------------------------------------------------

Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a control knob and a lever. "What do you think this is?"

One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a toaster," he said.

The king asked, "How would you design an embedded computer for it?"

The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and quantizes its position to one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as the index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay, it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back next week, and I'll show you a working prototype."

The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few years.

With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent solution to the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods. Specialize this class into subclasses: grains, pork and poultry. The specialization process should be repeated with grains divided into toast, muffins, pancakes and waffles; pork divided into sausage, links and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled eggs, hard-boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various omelet classes.

The ham and cheese omelet class is worth special attention because it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy and poultry classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be properly solved without multiple inheritance. At run time, the program must create the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook yourself'. The semantics of this message depend, of course, on the kind of object, so they have a different meaning to a piece of toast than to scrambled eggs.

Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis phase has revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any kind of breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered some derived requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want the eggs to get cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent processing is required, too.

We must not forget the user interface. The lever that lowers the food lacks versatility and the darkness knob is confusing. Users won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface.

When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen. Users click on it and the message 'Booting UNIX v. 8.3' appears on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on the foods they want to cook.

Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk and a VGA monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking, object oriented language that supports multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a four-bit microcontroller!)."

The king had the computer scientist thrown in the moat, and they all lived happily ever after.

[1] http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/ktoast.html

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by mindcrime on Friday June 28, 2013 @06:40PM (#5960685)
It's an amusing story and a good cautionary tale, no doubt. But not all complex designs are over-engineering. Some problems are complex and require complex solutions. And sometimes complexity in one place is just a way of moving it from somewhere else, because somebody thought that tradeoff made their life better.

See what I said below about how much I prefer JPQL and Spring Data... Personally, I really do not have a problem with this.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by wldlyinaccurate on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:04PM (#5960786)
> Some problems are complex and require complex solutions.

And yet some very complex solutions were solved with very simple languages, before Java was conceived.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jfb on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:14PM (#5960825)
Java is not a complicated language. Something about its affordances pushes developers into these giant labyrinthine swamps of abstraction violation, but the language isn't that complicated, either syntactically or semantically.
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by casual_slacker on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:31PM (#5960877)
The heavy emphasis on classes is what is strange about it. Many programmers don't realize the strangeness since they've used classes their entire careers. A class isn't really a procedural concept. Nothing in a processor knows what a class is. It's more of a modeling language with an assumption that you'll architect your program to group similar methods into abstract trees of domain concepts, with your data at the leaves (instances).

So we're stuck with these complicated compile-time rules for defining everything in terms of a procedural language. We come up with complicated templates and generics for getting one set of methods to work with two types of data. Objects are needlessly serialized and deserialized to pass between systems, and programmers are needlessly spending time writing such methods.

I'm surprised that scala's paradigm of having actors work on data hasn't caught on more. When you separate them from the start, new modules are way easier to right, and integration time drops to near zero.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jlgreco on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:55PM (#5960954)
If I had to pin down Java's problem on one thing, I would say that its problem is really C.

Or more accurately, the problem is that Java was a new language shoehorned into being "like" a language that was never meant to hold the concepts that Java demands. In some cases this manifests itself in more syntactical ways; C's pragmatic but unsophisticated approach typing works well for C, but starts to become a real burden when you start adding more sophisticated concepts onto the language. (Were generics really a concept that were ever appropriate for something like C? Generics deserve a more considered treatment; a language with structure and syntax designed with them in mind.) In other cases the impact is more clear but inexplicable; "In Java Everything is an Object"(tm)... except for the things that are not.

The end result is a language that is ugly and clumsy to work with without some pretty advanced tooling, all for reasons that really have no business being real problems. Shameful (primarily cosmetic) flaws forced upon Java by the business decision: "make it reminiscent of C".

I have the same complaint about C++. Had Java and C++ not burdened themselves with the design requirement of looking like C, they would be much better languages. Languages that stray further from the mold, like Scala or Go (I am thinking particularly of their abandonment of C inspired defines, in favor of a more Pascal approach), are more pleasant to work with for it. Perhaps this damages adoption.. but that is another matter I think.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by DougWebb on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:37PM (#5961059)
I don't think I agree with your analysis. C# was originally designed to look a lot more like Java than Java ever looked like C, but it hasn't been hampered by that and has evolved to be a much more advanced language than Java has. It also doesn't have the over-engineering culture that Java has (aside from a number of "Enterprise-Class" add-on libraries Microsoft has tried to push out.)

The same could be said about Ruby and it's relationship to Perl and Python. It has cultural roots in those languages, but is often regarded to be better rather than worse. (As a die-hard Perl developer I disagree, but I don't hold a grudge.) All three are also considered to be C-like languages too, and they don't suffer the problems Java has.

One could argue that Java's problem was that it was designed for programming VCRs, DVD players, and Cable-TV boxes, and similar equipment, but the got stretched and pulled into environments it just wasn't ready for. That, plus Sun's hyper-aggressive marketing machine to turn Java into the language-for-everything, created the beast that it has become.

My personal view is that Sun turned Java into a programming language for charge-by-the-hour consultants. The culture of over-engineering exists because it takes a lot more time to design software that way, more time and larger teams to implement software that way, and specialized hard-to-transfer knowledge to maintain that kind of software. This all benefits the consultants and hurts the companies paying for the software to be built, which only makes sense if Sun was intentionally pushing Java that way.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jlgreco on Friday June 28, 2013 @09:08PM (#5961157)
I would say that all of those languages, while "officially" C-like (as Go is), all stray much further from C than Java or C++ (as Go has). Particularly Perl, Python, and Ruby, which are dynamically typed which singlehandedly eliminates neutralizes a great deal of "C's baggage".

I wouldn't describe C# as a language that I like, but I think it too has benifited from breaking the mold of C more than Java did (though I attribute most of it's superiority to its designers simply making better decisions in several places). Named and optional arguments stand out in my mind as ways C# did something that had no precedence in C, while Java still has not. (There is that double squiggly bracket trick, but you have to admit that is pretty shoddy).

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jrochkind1 on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:49PM (#5960935)
I'm not sure that's it -- ruby also has a heavy evidence on classes, but encourages entirely different sorts of solutions. Sometimes for better, occasionally for worse, but rather than argue about that, my point is just _different_ -- if emphasis on classes was what led to designs like Java, ruby would lead to em too, but it doens't, so it much be something else.

I do like the way jfb suggests using the concept of 'affordances' with languages/environments, to analyze what sorts of code they encourage. But to really do that, we'd have to actually identify these specific affordances, which i'm not sure how to either.

(And as far as your particular line of argument -- does anything in a processor know what an 'actor' is either? If not, I believe you that you find 'actor' a better abstraction than 'class', but it must not have anything to with either one being something the lower-level computer architectural abstractions 'know about')

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jfb on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:54PM (#5960951)
I think software as a discipline (design, implementation, analysis) has a lot to learn from more traditional areas of UI research -- by which I mean design in the Donald Norman sense. Living off in the universe of Platonic forms of e.g. patterns for organizing patterns for organizing data is fascinating, but eventually we have to pause our theorizing and start inspecting the way humans come to grips with theory.

There's a saying that one can write COBOL in any language, but nobody is born itching to POST INCREMENT C BY ONE. A given technology has a spirit; that spirit guides the usage of the technology; and people who use that technology, and share a sufficiency of that spirit, will find a welcoming home. That spirit is intrinsic to the technology; changing Java to not rely on Simula style classes for code namespacing would destroy Java -- it'd be something very different, and the usage of this new language would mean entirely new styles of conceptual organization.

I'm not taking a stance in this post on the aesthetics of the various ways to organize programs; but I do think that the forensic exercise of determining the -- I dunno, zeitgeist? -- of a technology is an interesting, rich one.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Silhouette on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:58PM (#5961123)
Java is not a complicated language.

Unfortunately, Java is also not a very powerful language. Many of those OO gymnastics are only relevant because the language isn't expressive enough to achieve the same results in a simpler, more direct way. Java is the language where design patterns in the Gang of Four sense first became popular, and it's often been suggested that design patterns indicate missing language features.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jlgreco on Friday June 28, 2013 @09:12PM (#5961162)
> it's often been suggested that design patterns indicate missing language features.

Exactly right. In previous decades, had they been using modern terminology, calling conventions would no doubt be covered by plenty of "design patterns". We don't speak of calling conventions that way now because languages provide that for us.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by mpyne on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:09PM (#5960994)
As a mainly C++ developer, I agree with you 1000%
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by jfb on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:15PM (#5961018)
Exactly: C++ (or Scala, to pick a JVM example) is a complicated language. There are a lot of rules, and they interact in subtle ways, and therefore that's a real opportunity for spooky action-at-a-distance stuff.

For better or worse, Java has much simpler semantics.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Retric on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:55PM (#5961106)
Java is one of the most complex computor languages in existence, so unless your comparing it to English I really don't see where your comming from. Don't believe me try an make a compiler some time.

PS: THE Java® SE 7 Edition of The Java Language Specification describes all the features that have been added to the Java programming language in Java SE 7. It also integrates changes made to the Java programming language under maintenance since the Third Edition in 2005. http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/jls7.pdf. It's 670 pages long.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Silhouette on Friday June 28, 2013 @09:12PM (#5961166)
THE Java® SE 7 Edition of The Java Language Specification [is] 670 pages long.

Unfortunately, among the major industrial programming languages, that is far from the longest specification out there. Moreover, some of the major industrial programming languages don't even have a standard reference specification. Notwithstanding its length, the Java spec is actually fairly efficient and well-organised in comparison.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Retric on Saturday June 29, 2013 @06:42AM (#5961998)
Ok, if your going to ignore 98% of all programming languages out there and focus on say the most popular 20 it's not that bad. However, there is a long tail to programming languages and some of them are actually simple, strait forward, and still useful for large progects even if not the 'Enerprise CRUD' variety.
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Silhouette on Saturday June 29, 2013 @08:40AM (#5962212)
I'm not disagreeing with your point about the long tail. I'm just saying that there are other languages that, by this metric, are significantly more complicated than Java, yet which don't get drowned under the weight of design pattern abstraction idiom pattern architectures. It seems whatever causes that effect in Java is not (only) how complicated the language is.
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Retric on Sunday June 30, 2013 @10:18AM (#5965854)
I think a lot of that crap is missing language features. If java 1.0 let you pass around functions at least as well as c# then many of those patterns would not have been worth talking about.
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by prodigal_erik on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:11PM (#5961004)
Except they weren't solved. After fifty years of trying, the number of programs we've produced that work correctly (no bugs and certainly no "undefined behavior") is damn close to zero. So far the best any known language can do is statically rule out just a few classes of low-level mistakes.
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by Silhouette on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:48PM (#5961088)
So far the best any known language can do is statically rule out just a few classes of low-level mistakes.

And if we actually used those languages, we would probably be seeing much lower bug rates in production software already and we could start looking into what else could be improved next. Unfortunately, most of the popular industrial languages don't even get that far. :-(

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by redthrowaway on Friday June 28, 2013 @07:53PM (#5960947)
Well, yes and no. I make no claims as to the validity of your arguments, but having spent the last two weeks writing a static bytecode verifier for the JVM, I'm prepared to say that it is, at minimum, more complex than I'd like it to be.

Paradoxically, this assignment has given me a great deal of respect for the idiots who conceived of the damned thing in the first place.

Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by twelve40 on Saturday June 29, 2013 @04:14AM (#5961765)
If you decide to bump up the intensity with a strong statement or two, you'll need to be more clear on who exactly it applies to. The idiots who conceived the damned assignment? Or the ones who conceived the damned JVM?
Re:Unsure if I understand TransactionAwarePersistenceManager... by VladRussian2 on Friday June 28, 2013 @08:42PM (#5961067)
>At run time, the program must create the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook yourself'.

the perceived elegance of this approach makes junior CS college student eyes glow when s/he first hears about it, and that glow continues for, in the best case, at least a decade after college.