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Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @12:40PM (#5940677)
> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution.

This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @12:56PM (#5940786)
> Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both.

He actually can have done both. That something has value to the public does not mean it is not within the scope of prohibition of a criminal statute. (Further, even if there was a blanket "public service" exception to the applicable criminal laws, its quite possible that some of the information he absconded with and released could be "service" and the rest could still be "crime".)

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:32PM (#5941087)
I'm aware that the law can prohibit actions that are ultimately good for society. That doesn't make it rational.
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:44PM (#5941162)
I think you are confusing "rational" with "fitting my aesthetic ideal of how things should be".
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:52PM (#5941216)
How would you define "rational," then? Philosophy, or "love of wisdom", of which law is a branch, is all about trying to apply aesthetic ideals to the real world.
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @02:04PM (#5941292)
> How would you define "rational," then?

Following a consistent internal logic given its factual and aesthetic premises.

> Philosophy, or "love of wisdom", of which law is a branch, is all about trying to apply aesthetic ideals to the real world.

This would be something other than a non-sequitur if "philosophy" was equivalent to "reason" rather than the latter being a tool used by the former but which is not coextensive with it.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @03:06PM (#5941671)
> This would be something other than a non-sequitur if "philosophy" was equivalent to "reason" rather than the latter being a tool used by the former but which is not coextensive with it.

I'm having trouble seeing this as anything other than a purely semantic distinction.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @04:08PM (#5942087)
Well, yes, the issue of what words mean is by definition purely semantic.
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @10:23PM (#5943768)
Well, then this,

> Following a consistent internal logic given its factual and aesthetic premises.

is better described as "consistent" than as "rational". The language Brainfuck is consistent, but it would be a stretch to call it a rational language to build stuff with.

Rationality carries with it a connotation of deeper underlying symmetry to surface reasoning. The "aesthetic ideals" you're referring to.

A reasoning is different from a rationale. A rational person makes optimal decisions, renorming his expectations as needed. A consistent person makes the same decision over and over based on some unchanging principle.

We want our laws to be rational, not consistent. To seek out an ideal regulation of behavior that's fair and useful to everyone. It is certainly consistent within a specific framing of law that useful actions be outlawed, but it is not rational.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 26, 2013 @01:39AM (#5944382)
>Rationality carries with it a connotation of deeper underlying symmetry to surface reasoning. The "aesthetic ideals" you're referring to.

I disagree. Rationality is orthogonal to aesthetic ideals.

> A reasoning is different from a rationale.

No, its not.

> A rational person makes optimal decisions,

That's true pretty much only if you are referring to the definition of a rational actor in rational choice theory, in which "rational" has a very special definition that isn't very much like its use anywhere else (since it presumes both perfect and total knowledge of the utilities and disutilities, both immediate and distant, that will result from any choice, and a universal decision rule of action in which the actor always maximizes his own utilities.)

> We want our laws to be rational, not consistent.

"Rational" in the sense it has to make your previous sentence true cannot be applied to laws except as acts of individual legislators, and if it was it would mean that they were acts maximizing the legislators personal utilities.

> To seek out an ideal regulation of behavior that's fair and useful to everyone.

"fair and useful to everyone" is "just", more than "rational".

> It is certainly consistent within a specific framing of law that useful actions be outlawed, but it is not rational.

In the sense that your stated definition of "rational" is an unattainable ideal and, consequently, any real world law regardless of its attributes will be "not rational" by it, I agree; OTOH, I don't think that -- even aside from the fact that "rational" is the wrong word for it -- its really useful to use such a definition in a binary sense to discuss real world laws.

OTOH, using a continuous scale, even the most just law possible is going to occasionally prohibit some acts with social utility.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Wednesday June 26, 2013 @08:29AM (#5945558)
OK, at this point our disagreement is purely semantic. If you or I were to s/rational/just/g, then we would agree on everything.

I do not agree that the law could never attain rationality/justness. I believe that it can, but it can only ever stay there temporarily. Eventually society will change and make the laws irrational again. Which is why my focus would be on the tuning the machinery of state rather than each individual law. With enough work, we could build a system that anticipates societal changes rather than simply reacts to it.

> OTOH, using a continuous scale, even the most just law possible is going to occasionally prohibit some acts with social utility.

In this case a jury can exercise discretion and refuse to convict someone even when the law and evidence would demand it.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by dragonwriter on Wednesday June 26, 2013 @12:50PM (#5947219)
> In this case a jury can exercise discretion and refuse to convict someone even when the law and evidence would demand it.

Right. Or (in the abstract, though there are pretty strong signs that its not the current intention in this case) prosecutorial discretion or executive pardon can be used before or after the point where the jury would get involved. There are numerous tools available to fine tune the justice of the application of criminal law beyond just the scope of its prohibitions, and trying to foresee all the low-probability future possibilities in crafting the statutory prohibitions gets you into nasty trap; you've got to find a balance. And, most importantly, not view criminal law (or any law) as a machine that produces justice automatically without considering the people involved in its application.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by icebraining on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @12:53PM (#5940766)
Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime.

Isn't that what a trial - after arrest and prosecution - is supposed to determine?

The problem is not prosecution, it's that a fair trial is hardly guaranteed.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by codex on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:50PM (#5941198)
38% of Americans think that Snowden shouldn't be prosecuted. While not 50%, it's reasonably high. That, combined with jury selection and sequestration, ought to do the trick--but if OJ Simpson can get away with murder, anything's possible in the U.S.
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by vinceguidry on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:33PM (#5941092)
Why submit yourself to prosecution if you've no hope of a fair trial?
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by codex on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @12:58PM (#5940801)
Someone murdered your parents, to 100% certainty. They're found not guilty in court, and cannot be retried. They are 100% certain to kill again. You kill them and are found guilty of murder. You've performed both a service and committed a crime.

The law is a system. For the system to work, it must be enforced fairly and without political considerations.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by JulianWasTaken on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:12PM (#5940925)
The law is a service, not a system. Or at least that is the position that someone making the argument you're responding to probably holds.

No one cares what the law says. Decide whether what he did was good and if so it wasn't a crime. If the law says it was then do what it takes to avoid injustice.

Same goes for your analogy.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by codex on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:34PM (#5941100)
Agreed--there needs to be some sort of decision making process (or "trial") to objectively determine whether what somebody did was OK or not.
Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by JulianWasTaken on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @01:36PM (#5941112)
Good -- I agree with that as well :)

Which means I think we're in agreement that whether fleeing is appropriate depends on the probability of fair trial.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by codex on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @02:32PM (#5941470)
Not really. :-) A society needs an objective process ("trial") to determine whether someone's acts were good or bad. It also needs need an objective process to determine whether that trial will be fair. That process, which must be independent from political pressures, rests with a judge in the United States and/or an appellate court.

One can't excuse flight by waving one's hands claiming "unfair process", without subjecting that process to objective scrutiny (via a judge and appellate court). In Snowden's case the process hasn't even begun yet. If that's all it took, every criminal in the would use it to successfully flee their respective countries.

Nor does the determination of "unfair process" rest with a banana republic which hates the United States (as in the case of an asylum request), or with wannabe superpowers with axes to grind.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by JulianWasTaken on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @06:14PM (#5942796)
So... what you've said is that it depends on whether or not you can get a fair trial, only you've assumed that it is. All I've said is that that isn't necessarily the case.

If you (a "criminal") determine that there might not be a chance that you'll be treated fairly I have 0 problem with you running.

Re:Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden by hnriot on Tuesday June 25, 2013 @12:57PM (#5940793)
or both, it's not a binary thing.