News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by avar on Saturday June 22, 2013 @04:39PM (#5925069)
Interesting that none of the news articles I've read about this cover the aspect that police is shooting guns in the air in a populated area. Aside from the drone issue that's highly dangerous behavior, you don't know where those bullets are going to land.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by LoganCale on Saturday June 22, 2013 @04:52PM (#5925107)
Considering that they've been recorded intentionally firing teargas canisters at the heads of protesters, I don't think they're overly concerned about their wellbeing.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by maxmcd on Saturday June 22, 2013 @05:06PM (#5925145)
I was under the impression that firing into the air, especially in limited amounts, was generally non-fatal. The Wikipedia article on Celebratory Gunfire seems to confirm my assumption. Deaths and injuries are possible, but usually only accompanying large amount of gunfire.

There actions are still not without fault, but I can imagine a few more important aspects of this issue that we could be debating.

"Highly Dangerous" seems excessive

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by gfody on Saturday June 22, 2013 @05:13PM (#5925168)
http://mythbustersresults.com/episode50

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by MichaelApproved on Saturday June 22, 2013 @05:39PM (#5925235)
I remember it differently. The bullet would tumble back down so long as the angle didnt allow for the bullet to arc over. You do t have to shoot up perfectly for it to fall backwards and tumble down. There's a pretty wide margin for shoot up that would cause the bullet to fall back on itself and not cause as much harm as a bullet which held an arc.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by pondababa on Saturday June 22, 2013 @05:33PM (#5925218)
It's unlikely that it will hit someone, but it can, so you don't do it. Remember rule 4: know your target and what's beyond it. You don't pull the trigger unless you know where each projectile will come to rest.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by shpxnvz on Saturday June 22, 2013 @10:21PM (#5926008)
It's not as dangerous as people tend to imagine.

A bullet will lose sufficient velocity so that it no longer lethal relatively quickly. As an example we can use FBI specs for maximum range of the NATO standard issue M855 cartridge for 5.56mm , which is 3600 yards. Ballistics show a trajectory with 2200 foot drop at that range and a final velocity of 490fps with a retained energy of only 33ft/lbs (about 3% of muzzle energy). To attain impact at 3600 yards requires the rifle to be elevated at about 11 degrees. In reality, the bullet is likely to lose enough rotational velocity that it will destabilize much earlier, which will even more rapidly decrease velocity and power.

So, put simply, for this cartridge shooting in the air at an angle greater than 11 degrees relative to the horizon would not be particularly dangerous.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by bradleyland on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:55AM (#5926288)
I was at a New Year's Eve party one time when a bullet pierced the roof of an awning covering the back porch. The impact was loud enough that we heard it over the music and cheering ringing in the new year.

The roof was constructed of corrugated aluminum. Not the strongest stuff in the world, but the bullet passed through two sheets of this material on its way in. We estimated the entry angle at around 40-45° by looking upward through the holes, aligning the light that shined through them (the following day).

Having seen it first hand, I would dispute the assertion that shooting in to the air at a high angle isn't particularly dangerous.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by shpxnvz on Sunday June 23, 2013 @09:24AM (#5927473)
Did you recover the bullet? Measurements of the bullet would hint at the cartridge used, which would let us calculate how and where the round was fired.

There are certainly cartridges in production that carry dramatically more kinetic energy than the example I used, but the more powerful cartridges tend to be more rare.

Note that as velocity bleeds off the trajectory degrades faster and faster, resembling an upside down exponential curve. The angle of impact is much greater than the angle at which the round was fired; more so as distance increases.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by bradleyland on Monday June 24, 2013 @01:52PM (#5934518)
We couldn't find it. It entered the roof near the edge, continued through the screen, and in to the ground outdoors. We did a lot of digging around, but ultimately were unable to recover the round.

The holes in the aluminum roof were round (ruling out a tumbling rifle round) and were definitely larger than .22 caliber. Most gun discharges on occasions like New Year's are handguns, so it could have been any number of handgun rounds in the .35-.40 caliber range. It wasn't large enough to have been 45ACP or .44 Mag. It could have been a .30 caliber rifle round, but given the estimated angle of entry, I would have assumed it would tumble by then. To leave such a clean entry/exit hole would seem unlikely for a tumbling rifle round.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by mapt on Monday June 24, 2013 @07:44PM (#5936492)
A round with with those characteristics, while far from preferable as a weapon (not at all a "reliable" or "clean" kill) remains capable of killing in a very unlucky shot or causing a serious but nonlethal injury.

One doesn't refrain from hunting deer with 22LR because the 22LR (at about three times this energy) isn't dangerous, but because it is difficult to get a shot that produces an instant kill with > 90% probability, and one is more likely to chase and possibly lose a deer that is slowly bleeding to death. Hunters that are insensitive to the deer's suffering and willing to give chase will accept a 50% probability and brag about it later.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by hinoglu on Sunday June 23, 2013 @07:57AM (#5927191)
Cartridges are dangerous in terms of intentions. For example during istanbul unrest, tens of people lost their eyes, suffered from traumas in the head because of the cartridges shot from short distance intentionally. You can find video of police celebrating upon shooting a protestor in the head with cartridge on youtube. You can find a picture of the janitor after being shot directly in the eye with cartridge, on the following site http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/page/7 . Nothing man made are dangerous at all, but intentions make them so.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by beachstartup on Saturday June 22, 2013 @10:45PM (#5926056)
> angle greater than 11 degrees relative to the horizon would not be particularly dangerous.

unless there are buildings, of course.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by shpxnvz on Saturday June 22, 2013 @11:58PM (#5926183)
Oh yes, of course. I've never heard "shooting in the air" used to describe shooting directly at a building, though, so I was making an assumption there.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by beachstartup on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:56AM (#5926289)
something tells me the police shooting at drones are not going to care either way.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by matt_ on Saturday June 22, 2013 @11:14PM (#5926103)
someone in AZ got killed by a bullet fired in the air. They made it illegal and named the law after her.

So no. It can very much still be fatal

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by shpxnvz on Saturday June 22, 2013 @11:56PM (#5926174)
The ballistics calculations don't lie.

For this story you heard... what cartridge was used? What bullet weight? What muzzle velocity? Where was the gun pointed? Do you have any actual information to share?

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by rdouble on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:00AM (#5926193)
It's called Shannon's Law.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by shpxnvz on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:13PM (#5928054)
There is plenty of information about the law but I can find very little specific information about the actual incident besides a news report stating that "police believe it was fired straight up within a mile of Shannon's home."

This doesn't tell us much unfortunately. From Hatcher's testing done in the 1920's he found terminal velocity of a bullet fired straight up which does not destabilize is about 300fps, which with a fairly heavy .30-06 bullet results in about 30ft/lbs of energy. He noted that it was typically accepted that 60ft/lbs of energy was required to produce a disabling wound.

Of course, even at 30ft/lbs is it possible though statistically improbable that a falling bullet could strike in such a way as to cause serious injury or death.

It's very hard to get good numbers on injuries and deaths from this phenomenon, but the evidence points to it being an extraordinarily uncommon occurrence despite the fact that some cities, such as Dallas, report up to 1000 complaints for celebratory gunfire per year.

Note that I am not claiming it is a good idea.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by mbell on Sunday June 23, 2013 @12:10AM (#5926219)
The list of things that "can be fatal" is massive. 1 person dying does not instantly make an activity particularly dangerous.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by pyre on Sunday June 23, 2013 @07:20AM (#5927073)
If I put on a blindfold, and start randomly shooting around in various directions, I might not hit anybody. 0 fatalities! Does this make my actions "not dangerous?"
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by ihsw on Saturday June 22, 2013 @04:43PM (#5925079)
Such indiscretions will be forgiven by the courts because the police will have acted in the interest of public safety, look at the Chris Dorner fiasco in Los Angeles, USA for example.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by avar on Saturday June 22, 2013 @04:47PM (#5925096)
Yes, if they're actually acting in the interest of public safety, e.g. if a stray bullet meant for a dangerous gunman hits an innocent civilian.

The Chris Dorner fiasco came about because the LAPD fired on civilians they believed to be Dorner, they were incompetent in doing so, but firing on a suspected dangerous gunman is not a bad thing in principle.

But as far as I can tell the cops had no reason to suspect that there was any imminent danger from these flying robots, and were firing in the air just because they didn't like being recorded.

Firing into the air in a civilian area seems to me to be a much bigger issue than them trying to suppress news coverage of protests.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by jlgreco on Saturday June 22, 2013 @10:15PM (#5926000)
If protestors wanted to shoot down police drones, they could do it safely with birdshot.

Well, for some very limited values of safely. Actually firing the shotgun would very likely cause return fire directed at the crowd.

Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by blutack on Sunday June 23, 2013 @07:10AM (#5927045)
A 2.4GHz or GPS jammer would be a safer solution. Most of the police multirotors are standard consumer models without milspec GPS or communications.
Re:Turkish drone shooting heralds a new age of civillian cou... by jmadsen on Sunday June 23, 2013 @04:23AM (#5926662)
There was a case not many years ago at New Years in New Orleans of a woman dying from this, and if you "DuckDuckGo" it you can find other similar news stories.

So for all the mathematics posts in reply to your post, the real answer is, "Yes, it can happen. Yes, it is a dangerous thing to do"