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Re:We were wrong by angersock on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:02PM (#5919317)
This is a very touchy subject, right? I'm going to try and convey my thoughts very carefully here, so please try and be receptive.

(Context for this is for your bog-standard straight courting scenario--I do not feel qualified to comment on how courting for any other gender scenario works.)

~

In an ideal world, everybody would communicate honestly and openly. You could sit down with a girl, and have a conversation like so:

"Hi, I think you're attractive and I enjoy your company. Would you be interested in pursuing a relationship, or if not, perhaps a shorter-term physical engagement?" "Yes/No/Not interested."

This is, needless to say, not how 99.999% of the population works--as I, and I suspect others, have found to our dismay. Negotiating these sorts of things is not just a TCP ack sequence or something.

The fact is that even were roles reversed, that is just not what we would consider a compelling user experience. Expecting explicit handshaking for every step of the relationship cycle is something only emotional robots expect.

In an ideal world, the following things would be true:

1. People know what they want in a relationship.

2. People know how to convey what they want accurately to other people, especially in terms of arousal or courting.

3. People are free to signal availability or interest without repercussion, and accept rejection just as easily.

These three things are obviously far, far from the case.

~

There are very much conflicting cultural mores about how courtship is supposed to work.

On the one hand, we have hundreds and thousands of years of precedent (and perhaps biology, though I personally hope this is not the case) suggesting that the man is the one to initiate actions, and that the woman, if disinterested, will make her rejection known. Strictly speaking, we've got a bit more barbarous history behind us than that, but let's assume decent folk here to keep life simple.

On the other hand, we've got this recent push for more explicit confirmation for consent and for the more equitable distribution of first-move-making between the man and the woman.

These two things do not go together, and even worse, trying to come to a synthesis for your average inexperienced guy is a road which easily runs to ruin.

So, instead we find ourselves in this curious place where young men who mean well want to get with young women who also mean well. Unfortunately, the women are brought up expecting that the men will do the work, initiate everything, and the men are increasingly told that hey need to--to be safe and respectful, mind you!--wait for explicit confirmation of every step.

In programming terms, we are setting up for a deadlock.

Perhaps even more troubling, the hilariously large impact of social networks and whatnot mean that gossip is worse than ever, and there is no room to make mistakes if you are one of these young men. Worse, media is constantly reinforcing some awful blend of these two mores, making both sides seek after a state of affairs that simply does not exist.

There's some more issues I've seen, but you get the gist.

Re:We were wrong by Cushman on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:27PM (#5919541)
The phrase you're looking for is "enthusiastic consent". You're not looking for a signed contract. You're looking to have absolutely no doubt in your mind that your partner genuinely wants to do what you want to do. That just happens to be about a thousand times easier if you can talk about it like a (sexy) grownup.

Believe it or not, one goal of this policy is more, and better sex.

Re:We were wrong by angersock on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:45PM (#5919688)
I don't disagree that being able to talk openly about these things is good.

I assert, though, that the climate today makes it very treacherous to do so--and that even if it didn't, there still is a chicken-and-egg problem in learning how to do it. Vocaroo and similar services seem to be a starting point for folks these days.

Honestly it isn't something you just know how to do (especially if you are prone to over-analysis of your actions), and the chance of making a lot of trouble for yourself is non-trivial.

Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:47PM (#5919705)
"No doubt in your mind that..." != "It is true that..."

This is the problem with your argument. I'll admit it, I don't explicitly "ask consent" and there have been times where there was "no doubt in my mind", and yet, I was rejected. :(

But if I was rejected, then I've clearly committed sexual assault in the most strict sense.

It's called "misreading a situation". You may think something is enthusiastic consent, but it isn't. Hence, why I will continue to ignore your advice and "live dangerously" by attempting to interpret the situation and predict the other partner's desires by other subjective and unreliable means such as body language and the nebulous concept of "where we are in our relationship".

Re:We were wrong by Cushman on Friday June 21, 2013 @01:55PM (#5919764)
Just as long as you understand that in this context, "live dangerously" means that you might rape people without meaning to, just because you couldn't think of a sexy way to say, "So do you wanna fuck?"

That's an easy choice for me.

Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @02:19PM (#5919939)
This is so wrong on many levels, but briefly:

1) The legal definition of rape (at least in most states?) makes it such that one cannot "accidentally" do it.

Keywords: "[by means of] force", "duress", "physical resistance", "objected verbally".

A woman who was: * Not forced * Had no duress * Not physically resisting * Not verbally objecting * Mentally capable of making decisions

...is considered to be consenting. In other words, and perhaps contrary to the way you believe it should be, THE LAW REQUIRES YOU TO EXPRESS YOUR DISCOMFORT OR ELSE THERE IS NO PLAUSIBLE WAY THE OTHER PERSON COULD KNOW. Sorry. :(

If a person has sex but later decides they weren't really that into their partner, wished that they didn't, wished that they had stopped it earlier -- it's not rape. Regret and the discomfort / dissonance that comes from it is a far cry from traumatic, forced rape.

2) You know long before you were "accidentally raping" someone whether or not they were consenting.

Re:We were wrong by Cushman on Friday June 21, 2013 @02:41PM (#5920099)
Excerpts from a random hit on the subject of enthusiastic consent, in re: Stubenville:

In the aftermath of the guilty verdict, several people observed that many of the teens at the party didn’t realize that this was rape. To them, the fact that the victim was unconscious didn’t mean anything. “I didn’t know this was rape,” said one witness. “It wasn’t violent.”

...

In many ways, the focus on “no” puts the burden – yet again – on women to rein in the libidos of men who presumably can’t control themselves… and in many ways can put them at a disadvantage. Women are often socialized to be non-direct for fear of causing offense; many women are frequently uncomfortable with being up front with saying “No, I don’t want this.” http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/03/enthusiastic-consent/

This is much more complex than you make it out to be, and that's precisely what obliges us to set guidelines that encourage folks not to rape rather than assuming not-rape as the default.

Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @03:04PM (#5920248)
Seems pretty straightforward to me. There are legal requirements for an action to be considered rape. -- In the first case, it really is quite trivial. Unconscious is not making a choice. Hence, "mentally competent". I suppose you could accidentally rape someone if you didn't know what rape meant, but if someone only told you "rape is sex without consent" and you fucked an unconscious person, surely if they took 2 seconds to think about it, they'd realize there is (and can be) no consent. I'm sure the people didn't really think it was perfectly fine to have sex with them. -- In the second case, it may be true that women have a more difficult time saying "no", but that doesn't absolve them of responsibility. Perhaps it is a failing that more women have sex when they don't really want to (but never express it), but legally, it would not be rape, so I don't see why this is being brought up. I agree that this scenario is unfortunate and but it doesn't warrant locking up a person. Yes, we should all strive to be sensitive to the needs of our partners, but realistically, some girls even feign consent when they really mean "I don't care much for it" or "if you'll cheer up afterwards" or "if you'll like me more" -- i.e. disinterest or questionable motives.

In summary, let's keep rape as a reserved term for obvious and gratuitous violations. This "accidentally raped" is kind of stupid.

Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:13PM (#5920701)
Also, having thought about it slightly more, I think you're confusing "unwanted sex" with "non-consensual sex". Neither is a good thing, but there is a strong different, especially in terms of legality and trauma.

Men and women have unwanted sex all the time. They do it because they don't want to let their partner down, because they think it is their "job", because they want to get something, because they are bored, because they want to feel wanted, because they just want to feel loved, because they haven't in a long time, etc. -- not always the best reasons. Typically, those feelings can be resolved in other ways.

We, as lovers, should strive to reduce the number of unwanted sex events as possible, and to do so requires an open bidirectional communication channel. However, while it may be sad that women are more prone to agreeing to unwanted sex, this is not the same thing as //raping// someone. I think it's really important to make the difference, because for one we say that the relationship is a bit off, in the other, we lock a person up and mark them for life.

Re:We were wrong by tomp on Friday June 21, 2013 @02:04PM (#5919845)
It's highly inappropriate for you to refer to "kissing someone", even if it's unwelcome, as "rape". Sexual assault, that's ok, even though I don't agree with it. But calling it rape is very disrespectful, maybe even insulting, to the victims of actual, violent penis-in-vagina rape.
Re:We were wrong by malandrew on Friday June 21, 2013 @02:38PM (#5920068)
"violent penis-in-vagina" rape is not the only kind. Most people completely forget that more men are raped every day in the US than women.
Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:17PM (#5920726)
Men more than women? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing, but [citation needed]. I've never heard of that being true, so I'd like more information. I mean, the fact that we typical think of rape as man-on-woman kind of speaks to our perceived frequency, yes?
Re:We were wrong by jaredsohn on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:28PM (#5920782)
From some googling, here's an article from 2008 that suggests this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/...

Essentially, it says that prison rape accounts for the majority of rape in the US and those victims are predominantly male.

Re:We were wrong by figglesonrails on Friday June 21, 2013 @04:46PM (#5920884)
Ah prison rape. Yes, I hadn't considered that, but that would make sense. I'm not sure that prison statistics are really relevant to the original topic though, as far as defining what typical interactions are like, but does seem like interesting trivia.
Re:We were wrong by theorique on Friday June 21, 2013 @08:18PM (#5921932)
One of the key questions is, can consent be given via physical actions and body language?

Or does it have to be given via verbal instructions?

If a girl is touching you back, tugging at your clothes, unzipping your fly - is that some form of communication? Or is it meaningless?

Re:We were wrong by king_jester on Friday June 21, 2013 @03:00PM (#5920220)
> So, instead we find ourselves in this curious place where young men who mean well want to get with young women who also mean well. Unfortunately, the women are brought up expecting that the men will do the work, initiate everything, and the men are increasingly told that hey need to--to be safe and respectful, mind you!--wait for explicit confirmation of every step.

This is so laden with sexism it cannot be taken seriously. No, most women are not brought up expecting men to do all courtship and it silly to assume so. Further, in the context of how men treat women the dominant social narrative is sexual violence perpetrated by men your problem as a victim, so the reality is that the kickstarter project in question advocates taking advantage of this narrative to get sex without clear consent, which is outright rape.

Re:We were wrong by emiljbs on Saturday June 22, 2013 @06:17AM (#5923123)
>This is so laden with sexism it cannot be taken seriously.

How? Serious question.

Re:We were wrong by malandrew on Friday June 21, 2013 @02:06PM (#5919856)
This is my favorite comment here. I wish I could upvote both for the insight and eloquence as well as the ACK comment and deadlock comment.