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Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by diminoten on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @04:35PM (#5901902)
What set of facts would the NSA be required to show before those who oppose these surveillance measures in general start saying what the NSA has done is reasonable?

Is 50 threats stopped that wouldn't have been enough to justify the intrusion of privacy? Would 100? Maybe 1000?

Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @05:19PM (#5902144)
In my book, there's no number.

The question assumes that this is all negotiable, that there's some level at which we should be prepared to surrender fundamental freedoms. I claim that no such value exists.

Since the primary source of these threats seems to be from militant Islamicists, it would seem that we could get some measure of safety from banning Islam from America. How many thwarted attacks should it take for us to toss out the First Amendment?

It's difficult to prove that somebody is conspiring with a terrorist organization. Surely the need to prove a defendant guilty before a jury, is opening the door for terrorist attacks. How many thwarted attacks should we expect before we're willing to discard the Seventh Amendment? Oh, wait, we've already done that one in Guantanamo. Maybe we are on the way...

Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by anigbrowl on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @05:56PM (#5902322)
Since the primary source of these threats seems to be from militant Islamicists, it would seem that we could get some measure of safety from banning Islam from America. How many thwarted attacks should it take for us to toss out the First Amendment?

Surely you've noticed that there's a small but vocal minority that is heartily in favor of this, along with things like militarizing the border with Mexico, rounding up 1--12 million illegal aliens, and so on.

Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @08:45PM (#5902994)
Indeed. And I'm comfortable lumping those xenophobes into the same group as those who believe that we should throw out the 4th Amendment, and have already discarded the 7th (and chunks of several others).
Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by diminoten on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @01:55AM (#5903928)
Don't you hear yourself? You're as unreasonable as the people you deride...
Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by CWuestefeld on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @09:06AM (#5905266)
Well, I guess that depends on what you consider "unreasonable". I'll admit to idealistic, resolute, and maybe even impractical.

But it's actually my point that it's the ideals that matter. We can never say that the ends justify the means, because there's never actually an end: time just keeps rolling on.

So tell me: do you see me being unreasonable in a bad way? (This is a sincere question: what am I missing from my point of view?)

Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by diminoten on Wednesday June 19, 2013 @02:45PM (#5907392)
Okay, you do recognize it's not useful as a means of determining policy and legislation (practical).

That's fine. The world needs idealists, but you have to understand when you don't get your way.

Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by diminoten on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @06:08PM (#5902378)
I don't think it's reasonable to claim there is literally no justification for the NSA's actions.
Re:NSA Claims Surveillance Programs Aided Stopping Of 50 Att... by Uhhrrr on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @05:58PM (#5902327)
For me, they would have to show me which of my phone calls was used to stop a threat.