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Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by patio11 on Saturday May 02, 2009 @11:08AM (#589903)
In the same sense that my Japanese builder not using deadbolts and reinforced bars on the first floor windows, it is certainly a newbie mistake. Granted, there hasn't been a breakin in this ward in 5 years, but it could happen and then he'd be sorry he saved the $200 on his last 100 apartments.

There are costs to absolutely everything, even doing the hashed password in the DB trick.

Specifically, it puts one more bar in front of people logging into their account, particularly for some users who are habitually incapable of remembering their passwords and use the remember password link every single freaking time. (These people exist. Everyone collects stats, right?) You all know the conversion rate dieoff that happens as you add each additional form element to a checkout or survey form, right? And how increasing any funnel by a webpage increases the failure rate of the funnel, right? Well, imagine the equivalent of both adding an extra form element and an extra web access, right in the middle of the funnel, and if the user fails to get through the funnel they don't just bounce, they stop using your service for good.

At 37Signals scales, losing half of the 10% or so of accounts which might need password recovery is worth a lot of money. At least several tens of thousands a year. That is an awfully big price to pay as the insurance premium against someone getting a full compromise of their database. (Though I'm sure their users would be grateful if the insurance worked. "Well, sucks that an unknown hacker has a tarball of all the business contacts I've ever put in your database. On the other hand, at least you didn't compromise my password -- my gmail remains safe!")

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by simonw on Saturday May 02, 2009 @11:37AM (#589928)
I don't buy that argument. When someone clicks "I forgot my password", you e-mail them a one-time link to log in to their account. They click it, and they're in. That's easier than checking your e-mail and then typing a password.

Not to mention that 37signals accounts are paid for - so there's a much higher incentive for people who forget their password to go through the flow to recover that account - otherwise they'll be wasting their money!

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by jasonkester on Sunday May 03, 2009 @04:43AM (#590732)
All you've done then is replaced the login process with the "forgot password" link. Every time this user logs in, you'll send him another random password, which he'll forget again immediately.

Worse, systems like yours usually ask for a new password when you log in again, but complain when the user supplies "password" or "letmein" because it doesn't have enough @ signs. And then it complains again when the user picks a password he's used before.

Maybe that's fine if you're a bank (though all it does is shift the plain-text password storage from your database to a sticky note on the front of your user's monitor), but if your site is just another URL shortener or whatever, I simply don't care how you store my password provided you can give it back to me intact when I ask for it.

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by simonw on Sunday May 03, 2009 @06:00AM (#590748)
Don't send them a random password. Send them a one-time login link (which is kind of like a random password, but it's embedded in the URL so you don't need to type it in to anything). The first screen they see once they're in asks them to reset their password.

For my own projects I don't set any limits on passwords that people enter - if they want to use an insecure password that's their problem.

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by jasonkester on Sunday May 03, 2009 @12:08PM (#590943)
I agree. That's the way forward.

A password that they can remember beats a password written on their monitor, even if it's not that strong.

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by pageman on Sunday May 03, 2009 @12:33PM (#590973)
how hard is it to program a "password strength" detector into these apps?
Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by simonb on Saturday May 02, 2009 @11:38AM (#589929)
If you routinely forget your password it doesn't really matter if you always get a new/different password, now does it?

edit: not that this is the best way to go (see other comments) but it's still miles better than what they have now, with minimal intrusion for their users.

Re:Can you trust 37signals with your password? by cool-RR on Saturday May 02, 2009 @11:20AM (#589917)
What's the problem with a "reset password" option?