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Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by theklub on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:14AM (#5880353)
It's time for a new political party. Forget the people who say it can't be done. Now is the time. We are stuck in a rut and its time to get out. You have a choice, be lazy and accept what is happening or step up and make change. Its clear our current system is rotten.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by ctdonath on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:07PM (#5880686)
The two viable dominant parties have very similar voter counts. Starting a new political party requires taking voters away from the one dominant party closest to the new party's position, rendering both impotent and handing control to the party you least want to have it.

The political equilibrium keeps things as they are. Those in power can't do what needs doing because they'll get thrown out for it (ex.: total spending must be cut in half, but nobody is going to make such draconian across-the-board cuts and survive). Something has to break to disrupt that equilibrium, something like defaulting on debt maintenance or onset of hyperinflation.

Yes, we're stuck in a rut. There comes a point where you have to get out of the car and start walking, leaving the driving paradigm behind.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by theklub on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:16PM (#5880741)
I wish I had some numbers but I can't look them up right now. How many American's are currently not even voting? I bet most of them are younger voters who believe their vote doesn't matter for one reason or another. Perhaps engaging them could be a good first step. And also a huge shift in party power could take a lifetime but does that mean it shouldn't be attempted?
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by mindcrime on Friday June 14, 2013 @01:25PM (#5881151)
I wish I had some numbers but I can't look them up right now. How many American's are currently not even voting?

OK, just to cite one example: The population of North Carolina as of 2012 was 9,752,073. 23.7% are under 18 and therefore ineligible to vote. That leaves approximately 7,440,831 eligible voters[1] (I'm ignoring convicted felons and other edge cases for now).

According to the State Board of Elections, there are currently 6,438,531 registered voters. 2,764,322 Democrats, 1,984,251 Republicans, 20,901 Libertarians and 1,669,057 unaffiliated.[2] So that gives us around 1,002,300 potential voters who aren't even registered. So around 13% of the eligible voters aren't even registered and obviously don't vote.

Now that's just one state, and that doesn't even attempt to account for people who are registered, but don't bother to vote, or vote infrequently. But it does suggest that there's a not-insignificant number of people who are sitting on the sidelines during elections.

Edit: Also, as one might expect, there's a Wikipedia page on this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_Sta...

[1]: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/37000.html

[2]: http://www.ncsbe.gov/

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by rallison on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:31PM (#5882639)
Of course, the felony issue isn't an edge case in some states:

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0...

Your North Carolina example still stands, as only (only being relative here) ~80,000 people are disenfranchised due to felony status. But, in states like Florida, Mississippi and Kentucky, it can be as high as 10% of the voting age population.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by mindcrime on Saturday June 15, 2013 @01:15AM (#5884162)
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realize just how high those numbers were!
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by theklub on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:35PM (#5882335)
Thank you!
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by untog on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:41PM (#5880861)
I bet most of them are younger voters who believe their vote doesn't matter for one reason or another.

I bet most of them are people who don't care about politics. Good luck trying to engage them, people have been trying to do so for decades and have failed. The simple reality is that life is comfortable enough for most. Few are starving, few are persecuted- if you're earning enough to live a relatively comfortable life, why bother voting?

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by ledge on Friday June 14, 2013 @01:14PM (#5881082)
Speaking only for myself, as a young person who does not vote, it's not a lack of interest in politics or the state of world affairs. I'll vote only once the electoral process is significantly reworked, until then I have better ways to engage civically.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by ctdonath on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:01PM (#5881365)
Their complete disinterest aside, are there seriously more of them than each of the two major parties? and will vote for the new party, which is committed to doing unpopular things?
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by tim_hutton on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:26AM (#5880425)
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by podperson on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:44AM (#5880530)
An insurgency within one of the two big political parties is probably more likely to work than a third (or nth) party given how broken the US electoral system is. And of course it's the super-low-turnout primaries where we can really make a difference.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by Osiris on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:04PM (#5880661)
Broken is a strong word. I studied comparative politics in college include a variety of different election system. It turns out that each system has it's own pros and cons. For example, proportional representation systems end up giving smaller parties a disproportionate amount of power because of the 50+% vote requirement to pass a bill. The smaller party can throw its weight around and create a coalition with one of the bigger parties, thus getting more of their agenda passed than they should be able to.

So, rather than say that it's broken, just admit that the way the system is structured (first past the post) is what causes a two-party system.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by podperson on Sunday June 16, 2013 @01:11PM (#5889076)
Proportional representation systems do give small parties disproportionate power, but the US system does that with States anyway. (Australia has a proportional system in the senate which favors small parties in small states.)

But Australia tempers this with preferential voting in the house which is simply better than the US electoral system (because small parties can still sway the outcome without actually getting members into parliament -- e.g. the greens can say they prefer X over Y and then direct their votes to X or Y, but if they actually get a big vote they can still win).

New Zealand has a really nice system which is a little proportional but not too proportional and wastes very few votes without turning some tiny nutcase party into the tie breaker.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dllthomas on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:49PM (#5880906)
I think that the un-broken version of our system is one where votes are still for particular candidates directly but tallied via approval or range voting. What objections do you have to such a system, that make it look comparably broken to the current one?
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by Osiris on Friday June 14, 2013 @03:31PM (#5881946)
Range voting attempts to solve one problem while still creating side-effects and exploits available to both voters and candidates.

My point is that each system has both pros and cons. You cannot create a perfect electoral system. No matter what rules you make, some smart guy is going to figure out a while to exploit those rules to their advantage.

Of course, I will admit that some systems do have fewer downsides than others, or there are tradeoffs of eliminating one downside in exchange for a different downside that's arguably less bad.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dllthomas on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:25PM (#5882862)
"Range voting attempts to solve one problem while still creating side-effects and exploits available to both voters and candidates."

This is vague enough as to be meaningless. In what precise ways is using range voting (and otherwise leaving things the same) worse than our current system?

"My point is that each system has both pros and cons. You cannot create a perfect electoral system. No matter what rules you make, some smart guy is going to figure out a while to exploit those rules to their advantage."

Sure, of course; Arrow's theorem says there is no voting system that's "perfect". Therefore, calling a system "broken" can't mean simply "not perfect" or it's meaningless. However, I think it's fair to call a voting system "broken" when there is an alternative that's better along some axes while worse along none.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dragonwriter on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:36PM (#5882910)
> Arrow's theorem says there is no voting system that's "perfect".

No it doesn't, its says that there is no system limited to rank-order inputs and outputs that meets certain criteria.

There are plenty of actual and potential voting systems that aren't within its scope, and it is also debatable whether the criteria it applies are the correct ones for a "perfect" voting system.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dllthomas on Friday June 14, 2013 @08:34PM (#5883335)
Fair point.

Your comment would benefit from elaboration. Are there any of the criteria you think are strong candidates for dismissal as elements of a hypothetical "perfect voting system"?

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dragonwriter on Friday June 14, 2013 @09:35PM (#5883479)
Universality particularly seems to be unnecessary for electoral systems, and I'm unconvinced that IIA is an appropriate criteria though it has some intuitive appeal.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by dllthomas on Saturday June 15, 2013 @02:47PM (#5885910)
Hm, I think that narrowly IIA is important - changes low down the list shouldn't effect what's high up in the list, or people will be discouraged from voicing their true opinion about the options they perceive as less popular. In the full sense, which includes changes at the top affecting things lower, it may not be necessary.

I don't think I'm currently grokking universality with the depth I need to assess it. I remember it seeming reasonable when I did dig deep in all this, ages back.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by podperson on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @04:14PM (#5901752)
Also: we're not asking for "perfect" just less bad.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by Androsynth on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:05PM (#5880671)
It didnt work for ron paul. although i guess you could argue that privacy has more people up in arms than our monetary system. either way, i dont see the entrenched powers letting that happen from within.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by genwin on Friday June 14, 2013 @09:39PM (#5883488)
ctdonath has it right. Because of a flaw in our system there can be only two viable political parties. Congress must agree to fix the flaw to get it done within our system, and Congress has the incentive to never fix.

The fix is instant run-off voting, like Australia has.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by pstuart on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:24AM (#5880415)
Please share your vision of that party's platform.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by theklub on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:57AM (#5880615)
The vision that I have includes allowing web based voting on party issues for party members. Complete financial transparency. Debate and decide what the party should support from within. Decide what issues are most important and attempt to tackle those first. I think the platform is that there is no real platform and the members decide what is important. Forget about gay marriage there are real problems in America. (education, war, privacy) I could go on and on about what I think are the issues in America but the point is we need to have a place to discuss these issues and have a group of people that can decide what should be done and then do something about it. Leaving it to a group of old men who are constantly lobbied is no longer an option.
Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by pstuart on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:23PM (#5880774)
That's not a party, that's more about process (which I do agree with, btw).

A party has to have a platform -- that's the whole point of a party: shared core values. But those values have to be actionable otherwise they are just platitudes.

It's all about money: who pays and how is it spent. Gods, Guns and Gays are distractions, but they have to be addressed in some way or they will remain distractions. The "right" uses those tactics because they are very effective. It just needs reframing.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by m_myers on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:32AM (#5880456)
In multiparty systems, it is possible to have a single-issue party which is actually electable (see the Pirate Party in Sweden and Germany). But in the US, any party must have a completely defined platform which is acceptable to a majority - or at least a plurality - of voters.

That is why the Libertarian and Green parties, both of which receive quite a few votes, are never elected. And that is why the proposed new party has very little chance. If its platform is defined by San Francisco hackers, there's a good chance that I will agree with half of the platform and strongly disagree with the other half, and most of the country will have the same reaction.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by Androsynth on Friday June 14, 2013 @11:55AM (#5880604)
it doesnt have to be a national party initially. If you took a pro-privacy, socially-liberal, fiscally conservative platform you could make a strong push in large urban centers across the nation. I know that the bay area would be accepting of this (accepting != elected, but it wouldnt get laughed at by the voters, only by the national media).

you just cant name it pirate party. In the us that would probably work against you.

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by nullc on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:09PM (#5880696)
> Please share your vision of that party's platform.

"It's like libertarianism meets communism but with promiscuous transparency and cryptography instead of classlessness.

Get ready people, Libercommusharepunkism is about to disrupt!"

Re:Reddit co-founder on NSA snooping [video] by pstuart on Friday June 14, 2013 @12:25PM (#5880784)
I've progressed from Liberal to Liberaltarian.