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Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @12:08AM (#5807258)
I was trying to figure out why it was that I disagreed with so much of what Michael O Church raised here.

Not only is Michael O Church clearly smart and well spoken, but it is simply statistically unlikely to be so often anti-affirmative by accident; not merely disagreeing, but holding a position that is the opposite of (what I believe to be) correct.

I came to the conclusion that I probably am seeing a very very different Bay Area than Michael O Church, and filtering the part that I see in a very very different way.

I think the reality is that perhaps mass culture is negative in the direction, but not magnitude, described here.

But what I see here, in the bay area, is a small tribe, embedded in city of San Francisco, energetically, beneficently, earnestly, relentlessly working and helping each other out, putting their considerable time, capital, and intellect towards building the future and solving our biggest problems. Nowhere else in the world are people really trying to solve these problems. And maybe it's not nearly enough of the bay area, but damn it, people really are trying. Not everyone believes and lives what they say.

But I think that, just enough of them, do. Enough to change the world for the better. And it feels, genuinely, like it is happening here, more than elsewhere. It would be a shame if that signal is lost to the noise.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by strlen on Sunday June 02, 2013 @04:32AM (#5807764)
I wanted to stay out of the whole Michael Church discussion: it is unfair, because I read the original article as a cry for help or expression of sadness by the original author, not part of anything more systematized.

However, I'll say this: for a theory to be useful it has to be internally logically consistent, but internal consistency is insufficient. The theory is usually applied to a mix of tautologies (independent of experience /perception) and observations (dependent on experience/perception)

In Michael's case his theory is logically consistent within itself, but 1) his axioms (about what ones' goals should be, what to seek in life, what constitutes fulfillment in work, etc...) seem wildly different from mine 2) what he has experience seems to trend towards the negative side and while not unheard of is, is definitely atypical in terms of the chain of events (hence our gut response which is to say "is he really talking about the same Bay Area/same Google/same software industry?") 3) even so, his perceptions of events seem to be very different from how I might perceive the same events.

I think that's why many people see Michael as while hyper-graphic (a common trend amongst many other Internet posters), clearly intelligent, insightful on technical topics (I'm a bit biased in this case, being a caml fan as well), but find his conclusions in discussions of the industry, management, and of entrepreneurship to be a bit bizarre.

(Donning a flame retardant suit, I am a bit reminded of Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science -- or other theories of a "computational universe": it is interesting and there are no internal contradictions, but I'm at at loss at how it could be broadly applicable or how it supersedes existing scientific and mathematical theories).

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by noloqy on Sunday June 02, 2013 @03:43AM (#5807688)
I think there's quite a strong divide between the creators and the consumers of (low level) technology, even in San Francisco (even though I've never been there). From what I can tell, there is a shift going on in the sense that the number of consumers will grow relative to the number of creators.

This all is the (natural) consequence of the successes of SV. These days, enough kids aspire to be the next Zuckerberg, rather than the next great sports player. These kids will move to SV and consume existing technologies, in the sense that they will follow a couple of a rails tutorials and build the "next great webservice" by combining a couple of the patterns they've learned and create a twitter-bootstrap website that goes along with it. They may create some trivial extensions and post it to Github, but that's about as far as their direct contribution to technology goes.

This isn't necessarily bad, some of the world's problems will be solved by this new generation of entrepreneurs. The presence of more high level developers may also make SV even more attractive to the developers that can actually create cutting edge technologies, which would make SV an even 'richer' place in the sense of talent. However, the number of times I hear people say "I've wasted 4 years at university, and wish I dropped out after the first month" makes me think that they have not understood what university is all about, and makes me wonder if they will be among the ones pushing forward the frontier of technology.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by roguecoder on Sunday June 02, 2013 @01:51PM (#5809409)
I think the fault in your last paragraph falls to universities. I have a liberal arts degree and have never once questioned the value of my education or its applicability to my work. I learned how to learn, how to understand the ideas of others and developed a broad base from which to understand modern society, whereas the CS graduates I know learned many concrete facts that are useless in their day-to-day lives.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by p_l on Sunday June 02, 2013 @09:05PM (#5810778)
I think that there's a significant number of people who didn't do the learning you apparently did, and instead tried a let's call it "vocational" approach. Funnily enough, such approach is at the core of the jokes about a so-called "humanist" studies leading to a job at McDonald's - the difference being that you can usually get by enough to start in STEM fields.

The other group of people complaining about university, to whom I sometimes belong, is grumpy due to how easy it is to be self taught, even if you might miss some of the more theoretical stuff that you won't use unless you work on a harder problem than most software in the world. Sometimes it's not even about education as much as it is about finances - I quite often found myself looking at job ads and thinking "I could do the job right now if I dropped uni, and I would have no more problems with money".

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by ars_technician on Monday June 03, 2013 @05:13AM (#5812166)
You are misrepresenting CS degrees. There are very few classes based on memorizing facts. It looks like your degree has taught you how to create strawman arguments pretty well though...

Let me show you how it looks from the other side. I got two technical degrees (one of which is CS). I learned how to learn, how to understand the ideas of others, how to model complex problems via abstractions, and how to apply logic and mathematics to those abstractions to solve the underlying problems. I have very few concrete facts memorized because I know where/how to find them. However, the liberal arts students just sit around and have pseudo-intellectual conversations about art/music/whatever, but never gain the discipline required to discover an 'actually correct' solution to a complex problem. This is why they can't get jobs.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by gangst on Sunday June 02, 2013 @12:40AM (#5807337)
Solve our biggest problems? I'm neutral here, but are you sure that's what is happening in the Bay Area and no where else in the world?
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @01:49AM (#5807499)
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I think natural resource constraints and tribalism / nationalism are the greatest chronic threats we face.

Energy tech and communications tech try to solve these, respectively; most funding, research and commercialization appears to happen here (although most deployment happens globally).

I've been studying where things are happening from my admittedly skewed vantage point for quite a long time. It does still seem that the vast majority (>60%) of activity is happening in the bay area.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by justincormack on Sunday June 02, 2013 @05:36AM (#5807879)
Thats a very SV response of course.

I don't think SV is at the forefront of energy tech, don't have any figures to hand, but I would put Germany way ahead of SV.

Communications tech, yeah maybe, but it is very well dispersed now. Social change created by this? Less so, the US is trying to reinforce the existing consumer society through better advertising. Much of the rest of the world is experimenting with using new technology to help change society, from the Arab Spring to M5S and the Pirate Party and so on.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by three14 on Sunday June 02, 2013 @06:00AM (#5807927)
This is one of those occasions where it's worth checking the poster's profile. Danielle Fong is "cofounder, chief scientist, lightsailenergy.com" and probably does know a lot of people in SV working on energy tech.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @02:52PM (#5809629)
Silicon Valley certainly outperforms Germany in new energy tech. It's not even comparable. Germany just spends more on deployment.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by Retric on Sunday June 02, 2013 @05:54PM (#5810258)
There is little need for better energy tech at this point, it's all a question of deployment.

Edit: That is to say wind and solar can both be cheaper than coal right now depending on location and how you calculate the cost of money etc. Which means we are over the tipping point and it's just a question of how much and how quickly to invest not the need for some great breakthrough.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @07:27PM (#5810511)
It's not possible to economically power the world with non-fossil fuel based sources based on current prices. We are between a factor of 2 off, optimistically, and more likely a factor of 5 off (floored by extraction and processing costs.)

I don't know where you got your data or how you're doing your analysis, but you're incorrect on this one.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by Retric on Sunday June 02, 2013 @08:57PM (#5810768)
If by power you mean electricity then your simply wrong. According to a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) between El Paso Electric Company and First Solar, electricity will be sold from First Solar’s thin-film solar panels to El Paso Electric Company for 5.8 cents per kWh http://cleantechnica.com/2013/02/03/thin-film-solar-power-to... Let's compare that with http://www.heco.com/portal/site/heco/menuitem.508576f78baa14...; and say there is no way to run an economy on renewable energy.

That said, scaling things up quickly is a hard problem but slow things down and many problems go away. Realistically, rather than transporting electricity to industry a lot of industry is going to move to where there is cheap power. Also, transportation is a separate issue boats and airplanes are not going to be 'green' any time soon.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @10:15PM (#5810944)
Let me try again. Maybe it will enlighten some other readers.

You're cherry picking some of the outermost outliers of both of their ranges, ignoring the cost of storage and transmission and distribution infrastructure, and ignoring the fact that the price of fossil fuel could just decline to the cost of extraction processing and transport as we produce replacements. The cost of coal + extraction nears 2 cents per kwh.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by Retric on Monday June 03, 2013 @10:46AM (#5813570)
That's a vary different argument from It's not possible to economically power the world with non-fossil fuel based sources based on current prices. However, my point has little to do with today, where not going to replace most power plants in the next 10 years so you need to consider the longer term.

First off transportation and processing are huge factors in the price of fossil fuels, finding and pumping oil are a small slice of the price of gas. At it's simplest cost of fossil fuels = (natural resource value) + (cost to locate) + (cost to extract) + (cost to refine) + (cost to transport) + (environmental cost). [even this ignores subsides etc]

What's important to consider is a proven reserve may or may not be worth extracting based on the market value when your done due to extraction, transportation, and refining costs. Many coal mines in west Virginia have been closed and reopened based on such factors. Now where do renewable energy come in? Shutting down existing coal power plants is a question of maintenance and fuel costs, but new power plants need to consider construction as well. Add to that all existing power plants have a finite lifetime so long term it's only the replacement costs you need to consider. So while building solar in new England is not worth it now, there are plenty of places where it is worth it and that's not going to change.

We have crossed the Rubicon to the point where economics are pushing adoption. Which means there is going to be a lot of grid connected wind and solar power in the future in places like Arizona which means grid operators have no choice but to adapt. The grid can and will slow adoption, but again existing infrastructure has a lifetime and the replacement is going to be designed around matching production with utilization.

The future of the energy market is a huge multidimensional optimization problem. But, investments follow expected profits and there are hundreds of billions of dollars worth of profitable alternative energy investments to be made over the next 30 years. Governments may help or hinder the process but unlike 10 years ago they don't actually need to be involved and it's still going to happen.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by TechNewb on Sunday June 02, 2013 @02:26AM (#5807577)
What makes America unique and strong is that few other places attract the amount of international talent that SF, and the US in general have. To my knowledge there is no other city in the world that attracts the amount of international talent that SF or NYC can. That with some of the best universities in the world, with many of them in California, put California, and SF, in a good position for many years to come.

Having said that, the world is changing. And we will see other inovation hotspots emerge, but I truly believe without diversity in people, it is harder to have diversity in thought , which can inspire innovation.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by noloqy on Sunday June 02, 2013 @03:49AM (#5807703)
Given the level of attraction of SV, the number of talented people from outside the US would be much greater if it wasn't for the way the US government treats foreigners. If the government doesn't become more receptive to foreigners it is quite clear that SV will never grow to its full potential.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by justincormack on Sunday June 02, 2013 @05:40AM (#5807887)
London has been a global city for its entire history, and would be in that group. As would Tel Aviv and Singapore.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by seanmcdirmid on Sunday June 02, 2013 @06:46AM (#5808009)
This is the standard red pill/blue pill paradox, which one do you want to take? Reality can be very subjective. I sometime see what Michael sees, but I can understand why others don't.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @02:58PM (#5809648)
Are you claiming that it's the true reality? If you want, you can trek down to specific parts of Kabul, or the Tenderloin, or South Bronx, or San Quentin, and see horror upon horror that bespeaks the devils within our phenotype.

But you can see far more greatness, goodness, and humanity if you so choose. Which shall it be?

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by seanmcdirmid on Monday June 03, 2013 @08:47PM (#5817052)
You can see horror upon horror just treking in the states. Whether you choose to, or more importantly, whether that is USEFUL to you is key.

Societies and cultures are complex systems. There are a lot of historical biases (e.g. castes even in the states) that are fairly easy to identify if you are looking. But for most people, I think, it is not worth stressing over aspects of the world that they have little ability to change. Why be unhappy?

> But you can see far more greatness, goodness, and humanity if you so choose. Which shall it be?

Unhappy critical people like some of us will see more because it is there to see. Many choose not to see it, because that is how cognitive dissonance makes people happier. Whatever world view works for you is the best one to have, I guess.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by FD3SA on Sunday June 02, 2013 @06:56PM (#5810420)
The key distinction here is that travelling to those places as a successful entrepreneur is worlds apart from being born there, without any genetic or environmental advantages to help one escape such a fate.

Michael is speaking from a broad base of experience, one that is not just a hero's epic of one success after another with a token failure before the ultimate victory. From the heroic perspective (PG, Zuck, Gates, etc.), every setback is but a small dip before eventual triumph. These people sincerely believe that anyone can do what they have, and as a result their worldviews are extremely limited and naive. In a way, they cannot know the other side of the story, because they have never experienced any other outcome.

The cold truth is that the situation Michael describes is reality for the vast majority of the working world. The darling VC-fund kids are a tiny minority, selling hopes and dreams to the masses in exchange for their servitude as employees who will never join their ranks.

It is very hard to see the system as a whole when one is so deeply immersed in one side of it. VC startups will not save the common man. If anything, they will put him out of work and ask him to "retrain", putting him in massive debt for an entry level position making far less than his previous job.

All this being said, I am extremely optimistic for the future, but I understand that the US requires significant structural reform if everyone is to benefit from technology. Not everyone can be a successful startup founder or programmer, and as soon as we accept that, we can move onto an earnest conversation about what needs to be done to make a better future for all, elite and commoner alike.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Sunday June 02, 2013 @07:38PM (#5810546)
I'm very confused by this. Who is "selling hopes and dreams to the masses in exchange for their servitude as employees who will never join their ranks."

The dream we sell to our employees is one version of an idyllic California life. Awesome weather, awesome people, awesome food, and the best work that they've ever done. That what we strive towards. We don't say whether they'll join our ranks; it is simply not an issue. Nobody asks. And if they do have an interest in founding their own thing, we'll help them. They are usually capable.

Again, I just do not see the reality that you're talking about.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by reaclmbs on Sunday June 02, 2013 @11:40PM (#5811229)
> the best work that they've ever done

Whatever you say, Marie Antoinette. You're the exception to the rule and can perhaps create a new kind of corporate culture (though I sincerely doubt it.. if you do, you'll owe it to society to write a management textbook. Or - you will act like most people do - and hoard the information for personal benefit, until one of your underlings reverse engineers it and publicizes because you're just not paying her what she's worth. Case in point: Michael O Church). Most great work is stymied by politics, because the great creative thinkers and engineers haven't been groomed and trained in politics/management. So due to their social flaws, their projects fail, and they're stymied.

Michael O Church is crowdsourcing political support, and he believes the crowd will throw out the hegemony. Well, Michael O Church just might be on to something.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by reaclmbs on Monday June 03, 2013 @12:40AM (#5811426)
A downvote without a reply is a form of impotence. It says: I don't like what you said, but I don't have the verbal dexterity to articulate my position in a cogent & cohesive way.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by DaniFong on Monday June 03, 2013 @01:13AM (#5811515)
For whatever it's worth, that's not me down voting you.

I will say two constructive things, and leave it as that:

- Startups cannot possibly afford to pay people what they are worth in cash salaries, because the value that they create is realized in the future. In order for startups to be fair, employees actually have to recognize some of the potential value of stock.

If employees were in a position to realize it, they could earn far more in equity. But people reasonably need some cash to live, so that is the tradeoff.

- The best experiences are worth more than equity or money combined. This is, to my mind, not sophistry. It's the only way to live. Money ultimately just gives more options for experience. You have to actually live life, and enjoy it.

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by michaelochurch on Monday June 03, 2013 @06:37AM (#5812428)
Startups cannot possibly afford to pay people what they are worth in cash salaries, because the value that they create is realized in the future. In order for startups to be fair, employees actually have to recognize some of the potential value of stock.

Of course, that is true and so I agree with what you're saying. The problem with startup equity/options is that it's often so pathetic. 0.03% of a 50-person company for Engineer #20? That's ridiculous, especially when useless nontechnical VPs are still getting 1%.

Software engineers, in most companies, get next to nothing in equity. What they get is a token, a lottery ticket. Only founders and those horrible executive implants pushed by investors get a real slice.

Here's a fairer way of doing that (profit sharing): http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais-macle...

The best experiences are worth more than equity or money combined. This is, to my mind, not sophistry. It's the only way to live.

Few people have the luxury of not paying attention to compensation. There are STEM PhDs out there who end up working retail because they have no safety net and when they fall into the working class, they can't get back out (often, they can't even afford interview expenses to get out of whereever they are).

Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by reaclmbs on Monday June 03, 2013 @01:49AM (#5811586)
Living life and enjoying it; a.k.a. "presence"; is not available to everyone. Most people, including workers in Silicon Valley such as engineers, literally get used and farmed. You happen to be of rockstar talent level and your ride will be more pleasant than most. Don't feel guilty - but don't get upset either when we mock you.
Re:I Wasn’t Prepared to Work by michaelochurch on Sunday June 02, 2013 @10:17PM (#5810950)
This is a great post.

Michael is speaking from a broad base of experience, one that is not just a hero's epic of one success after another with a token failure before the ultimate victory. From the heroic perspective (PG, Zuck, Gates, etc.), every setback is but a small dip before eventual triumph. These people sincerely believe that anyone can do what they have, and as a result their worldviews are extremely limited and naive. In a way, they cannot know the other side of the story, because they have never experienced any other outcome.

My story's not over yet. I plan on being successful. I'm too old (30 this month) to be a VC darling, but I know I'll do something cool, and probably in the next 10 years. But the world needs to see that the misery is real and that, no, not everyone gets out of it. Most people don't start talking about their lives until the bad stuff is all years ago and they end up putting forth an "all's well that ends well" rosy view. I want the whole story to get out. If I have a break-out success in five years, then after 5 more on that, I will already have lost some touch with how the world really is.

VC startups will not save the common man. If anything, they will put him out of work and ask him to "retrain", putting him in massive debt for an entry level position making far less than his previous job.

Right. I don't think that's the intention. I think many VCs are good people trying to help the world. However, most of the established players in Corporate America would rather cut costs than improve yield. The first increases centralization of power (fear) while the second is destabilizing to those in power, even if economically beneficial to all (including them).

VC-funded startups can't change the world because they are an even more short-sighted (by necessity) strain of the Corporate America they're theoretically supposed to be attacking.

All this being said, I am extremely optimistic for the future, but I understand that the US requires significant structural reform if everyone is to benefit from technology.

Very well said.