That was my reaction to your last paragraph, as well. Every time there's a thread about dealing with certain challenges of poverty, someone comes along and accuses the rest of us of having unrealistic expectations of poverty, and makes some snarky remark about hybrids or hookers or macbooks.
Instead of dragging the thread down, why don't we elevate the discourse?
I personally have plenty of real case studies to go from. There was the divorced mom of 3 whose ex hid his assets so he could duck child support, who my wife and I helped move between 3 different shelters. There was the mentally ill guy on disability who I took to the hospital on occasion, and who thanked me for teaching him to shop because for the first time in his adult life he had food at the end of the month. There's the single mom, recovering from mental illness, and her son who live with me right now. There are over a dozen homeless guys who come to my church on Sunday mornings for free hot breakfast, and over 6000 families who come to our food bank each year.
Would the information in the original post, or the comment you were criticizing, help all of those people? No, but it could help some of them.
Knowing which foods give the best bang-for-buck in terms of calories and nutrients, and having some basic idea of how to combine them to make some viable meals, is a big deal for some people. Gaining the basic confidence to attempt actual cooking, instead of feeling like you must rely on pre-packaged convenience foods, is a big deal for some people. Learning certain time management skills, such as planning ahead and taking a few minutes to start beans soaking in the morning, is a big deal for some people. Yeah, this thread as a whole is a pretty theoretical exercise, but it does have valuable practical implications even for those dealing with real poverty.
In the 0.1 post, she's quite clear about the limitations of the exercise: "I’m not trying to work out how easy or difficult it is for people or families who find themselves in this position — there are clearly a large number of concomitant challenges that I wouldn’t presume to be able to quantify or address."
We can continue the quibbling over narrow cases and solutions, but it all comes down to a phrase in a memorable HN thread: your life depends on it, so fucking figure it out. Some of us are trying to and doing pretty good at it; naysayers add nothing.
Also, this situation is atypical. About 3/4 of the poor do have a car. 1/4 have more than one.
This is just as disingenuous as the parent and isn't even close to representing the most common situation. The majority of people don't live next to a market that has proper fresh produce, but demand drives supply and there's a reason they don't.
Most upper and middle class families have largely abandoned the concept of fresh produce. When the poor become not so poor, they follow the same pattern. Not because they don't have a choice, but because they choose to.
My parents live a very affluent area. Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Pathmark (large local grocer), Mitsuwa (large Japanese market). Four choices within 1 square mile. All walkable. Not a single one of them has any significant fresh food selection. Not one. Oh, they have a ton of prepared food that you can buy by the pound, but not a whole lot if you want to make it yourself.
I live in a less affluent area (putting it mildly) and there is a farmer's market 5 minutes walking distance from my house that has only fresh produce, absolutely no prepared food. It has more fresh produce than all the the other 4 combined. Why? Because the people who live here can't afford prepared food. It's that simple. They would, if they could.
Whole Foods doesn't have fresh food selection? Really? They don't have fresh chicken? They don't have any vegetables?
Please kindly supply me with the address of such a place.
When you make blanket statements like "Most upper and middle class families have largely abandoned the concept of fresh produce" I have to question your information. I live in CT, in Fairfield county, which could claim as residents some of the wealthiest people in the world. Yes, the world. Think Steven Cohen kind of money. The Winklevoss Twins have a rowing club not far from my home. Do you think they're eating Chef Boyardee from a can? KFC?
I'm willing to believe that the fresh produce section will not be as varied in the smaller towns in the poorer areas of the country, but absent isn't something I'm willing to believe.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to call BS on this one. When was the last time you were in Whole Foods?
When you combine their frozen, refrigerated, packaged goods, and prepared foods sections ... their fresh vegetable section is maybe 1/10 of that size? Which is normal for most grocers in the US.
The local farmer's market? 90% fresh vegetable. Which, you know, makes sense.
The point everyone was making was that good healthy food is available. It might not be the BULK of what's on sale. But it's certainly AVAILABLE.
Here is a quote from you: "Not a single one of them has any significant fresh food selection."
I can get almost any fresh meat I desire and nearly any vegetable at my store. I think you need to reconsider your language.
http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/acrossstates/Rankings.a...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Po...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/poor-k...
> 47.6 percent The nation’s poorest kids primarily live in households headed by a single female (pdf). Nearly half of all children with a single mother — 47.6 percent — live in poverty. Indeed, the children of single mothers experience poverty at a rate that is more than four times higher than kids in married-couple families.
Further reading:
http://www.google.com/search?q=single+mothers+poverty+rates+...
Exactly how is being poor the most common situation? Are you under the impression that everyone is poor?
What?
Read my post. My point is that you don't have to be poor to lack access to fresh produce and in fact, if you're poor, chances are you have better access to it.
See: http://newsone.com/1540235/americas-worst-9-urban-food-deser...
Most of these "food deserts" are that way because harsh socioeconomic conditions (to wit: disinterest in quality products, coupled with prolific theft) made commerce in suitable foods untenable. Complain about "food justice" all you want, but the next meal is just a few hours away as is the next bus ticket. Demanding someone provide a balanced meal is both unproductive and unfair, so figure out a near term solution.
BTW, some of us are trying to help by finding what is viable at low costs in nearby stores. Strange how many deride the attempt to help.
This is low quality, and doesn't add to the discussion.
Here's a real case study; a mother, two children under six years old, mid-twenties, high school dropout, only has a bus pass and foodstamps. The closest grocery store is 3 miles away and she lives on government checks.
How much time do you believe it would take her to go to the grocery store to get fresh produce? How much time does it take someone with kids AND a car to get to the grocery store and back?
How much time have you devoted towards helping the poor? I mean actually sitting down with someone in the bottom 15% (not your friends-friend who's eating ramen at college or someone you heard of from high school) and how successful were you in training them to spend less money?
These topics are fine for what they are: Affluent people trying to spend less. They lose value when people look at the numbers and say "Gosh, this is so easy, why don't the poor just do this! Why don't they just buy a hybrid and save money on gas? Or maybe order all this stuff online with their macbooks to save time?".