News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:If you want war, work for justice by jacoblyles on Saturday April 18, 2009 @03:15PM (#568619)
This is why I don't enjoy talking politics with many groups of people. If someone assumes having the wrong opinions is evil, then the discussion is likely to be uninteresting and achieve nothing more than hurt feelings.

Once having the right opinions becomes a matter of justice, then you might as well end the discussion right there.

While I agreed with a lot of their positions, in retrospect the anti-Bush movement was bad for the level of discourse in this country. People became accustomed to dismissing their opponents as evil idiots, and this phenomenon is especially noticeable among my generation.

This relates to Paul Graham's "Small Identity" post. Having a small identity probably correlates with having a smaller domain where one invokes passionate moral outrage.

Re:If you want war, work for justice by netsp on Saturday April 18, 2009 @08:08PM (#568913)
Well spotted. Linking this to small identity is a part of an extremely important consciousness-raising that I hope is happening. Hopefully this will curb what you are describing about the anti-Bush movement.

I was recently talking about something similar relating to framing the international development arm of an NGO in the context of 'social justice.' That piece of semantic propaganda can cause a lot of trouble later on. The understanding of 'justice' that we nurture in our normal, functional societies is one that relies on one party having absolute power: A just ruler.

A Judge (or the legal system) has all the power. The defendant, only those powers given to him in the name of justice. In the context of this kind of society, unwavering commitment to 'justice' is extremely useful. People fall into line. It is harder to game the system by increasing barriers to justice. This all oils essential machinery like contracts, security & a fixed set of rules.

It is harmful taking this to a different context.

Once you leave that context, justice doesn't work so well. If you need the recipient of the sharper end of justice to agree to it, that's a problem. Who expected Omar Al-Bashir to show up voluntarily for his arrest? The reasoning was that asserting the International Court's in this context authority would be a step towards subjecting criminal rulers to the same justice as criminal citizens. But the power balance is all wrong.

Like the article rightly points out, making claims of ustice is no good if you are appealing to the party directly, via negotiations.

so why is everything framed as justice?

Partly it's habit. There are parallels between stealing cattle from a farm & stealing from the national treasury. But also, the proponents of 'justice' are often appealing to 'the public' as the judge. For example, the Israelis & Palestinians appeal to 'world opinion.' While perhaps strengthening their hands individually, that kind of appeal hurts their joint ability to negotiate with each other. IE, it gets them better terms in a less likely agreement.

Re:If you want war, work for justice by anamax on Saturday April 18, 2009 @09:34PM (#568981)
> If someone assumes having the wrong opinions is evil, then the discussion is likely to be uninteresting and achieve nothing more than hurt feelings.

One approach is to start with "Let's assume that I'm evil and you're good and discuss only what is correct/leads to better results." That makes many of the rhetorical games worthless.

And, if you play your cards right, you get to conclude with "Hmm, I'm the evil one but your approach ends up with {horror} while mine leads to {smiling bunnies}."

Re:If you want war, work for justice by viewsonic1234 on Sunday April 19, 2009 @05:34AM (#569285)
While I agreed with a lot of their positions, in retrospect the anti-Bush movement was bad for the level of discourse in this country. People became accustomed to dismissing their opponents as evil idiots, and this phenomenon is especially noticeable among my generation.

While I agreed with a lot of their positions, in retrospect the pro-Bush movement was bad for the level of discourse in this country. People became accustomed to dismissing their opponents as evil idiots, and this phenomenon is especially noticeable among my generation.

Re:If you want war, work for justice by viggity on Sunday April 19, 2009 @10:20AM (#569422)
Both sides handled it poorly, but what I primarily saw was the pro-Bush side dismissing their opponents as just "idiots" or "well intentioned idiots", not "evil idiots". Which, is obviously not good for a healthy debate, but an idiot is totally different from an evil-idiot.

"Democrats are the party of hate. Republicans are the party of fear" - Penn Gillette

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG6JYsm1GmM

Re:If you want war, work for justice by viewsonic1234 on Sunday April 19, 2009 @05:02PM (#569801)
The pro-Bush side encompasses a wide variety of people on the right and I'd swear that some of them thought the left were evil and were shovelling bucketfuls of hate as well. Maybe if you just listened to some of the more civil pundits on the right like David Brooks, William F. Buckley Jr. or George Will then you got a different view.