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Re:No Population Bomb by speeder on Sunday April 14, 2013 @11:38AM (#5547141)
I like this subject. Both relating to too much, and too few people...

First, regarding absolute human numbers, we do have too much, mostly because we are rapidly using up fossil resources (not only fuel, but also fertilizers), and some important ones already peaked (phosphorous for example).

But I don't believe that making your population decline fixes things, it only create other problems, the solution for the problem that I mentioned last, is develop more technology.

Malthus was right on his diagnostic, wrong in the solution (please, stop blabbering that Malthus is some stupid dude that is wrong, even on school I heard that, more than once, by several different teachers in several different grades), Malthus was absolutely correct in his calculations, he only did not accounted for the mining of phosphorous (that is one of the major enablers of green revolution).

Now we are running out of phosphorous and energy, and our food will return to levels Malthus calculated, unless we figure new tech, I hope someone does so soon.

Now regarding declining fertility levels... This is a problem too.

In history, there are several accounts of prosperous civilizations that had declining fertility, and all of them collapsed (usually when fertility reached around 1.3 per women). Several of the current western world problems are related to that, the need of external wars to keep some income flow (alright, no major powers are at war... between themselves, but how much wars US, France, etc... are involved with other smaller countries and forces? Even Brazil that is not developed is currently participating in a occupation force in Haiti and in civil war, although the media refuse to count the latter), debt problems, specially coming from welfare programs and wars, economies that are following their population numbers (thus we have Japan for example with economy declining with the same speed that their population is), and a increase in far right and far left party powers (example: brazillian military dictatorship apologists never been stronger, Greek far-right went from having no votes in parliament to 7%, and a estimated 35% in next election, Japan also has a new far-right nationalist party that got some respectable votes, the rise of Tea Party in US and Democrats steering leftward...)

And some groups, know of all this, and have a plan to take over when they can... The most famous one being Al Quaeda (that is the Arab translation of the name of Isaac Asimov books The Foundation, and it was known that Bin Laden was fan of the series). Al Quaeda is clearly aiming to teach their followers to keep a high fertility rate, so that they can conquer developed nations when they collapse under their own bureaucracy and population decline.

All those advocating that to fix the first problem I mentioned (peek resources), don't realize that by doing that, other nations still have population increasing, some of them will collapse because of it and cause further problems for everyone (and most likely will ignore the attempts of developed nations to stop their own population decline), and other nations are increasing in population on purpose, knowing well of its military effects, and will use it against any fool that voluntarily decline his population and ends struggling to keep itself up.

Re:No Population Bomb by Tuna-Fish on Sunday April 14, 2013 @12:57PM (#5547379)
> Now we are running out of phosphorous

Phosphorus is the 11th most common element in the earth's crust. Let that sink in for a while. It running out makes about as much sense as the humanity running out of hydrogen. Deposits economically extractable at present market prices will run out within a few decades. This doesn't mean we run out of phosphorus, it just means that the market price will rise until other extraction methods provide enough supply. It will not have to rise far, given just how common the element is.

> Now we are running out of ... energy

We are not running out of energy. Nuclear and solar each provides the capability to run for effectively forever -- fracking provides the short-term supply to build them out.

The idea of resource depletion is completely anachronistic. Today, we can produce or substitute absolutely everything we need, given input of common elements and energy. And we have sources of energy that do not depend on scarce resources. The time when the economy was based on extraction of limited resources has passed.

Re:No Population Bomb by speeder on Sunday April 14, 2013 @01:54PM (#5547566)
You are nit-picking my post.

Like I said, we are reached peak phosphorous as we mine it currently, and reaching peak energy as we currently use mostly fossil fuels.

And like I said, I believe we can use new technologies (like, solar power... or underwater phosphorous mining) to fix it.

Re:No Population Bomb by omegaham on Sunday April 14, 2013 @04:03PM (#5548053)
I think what's he's saying is that "peaking" is meaningless.

There's a book that was written back in the early 90s called The Ultimate Resource, by Julian Simon. A fair amount of it is typical libertarian wishful thinking, but he very strongly makes the point that in a free society, there is no such thing as a peak. There are always alternatives, and if a resource becomes more expensive, we will start switching to them. If need be, we will also change our behavior to accommodate these alternatives.

To take a great example, look at gasoline prices. There is no shortage of gasoline in the United States. The price goes up, and suddenly fuel efficiency becomes much more important. As a result, economy cars are much more common, as are hybrids and electric cars. Consumption then goes down.

This would be the case even if gasoline were ten dollars or even twenty dollars a gallon. People would simply take the alternative options, which become more and more attractive as the "default" becomes more expensive.

Re:No Population Bomb by richardjordan on Sunday April 14, 2013 @09:10PM (#5549192)
Just because a book makes a claim doesn't make it so. It is ridiculous to claim that you cannot have peaks or shortages because there's always a replacement - this is nonsense. The physics and chemistry involved is fixed. As a famous Scotsman once said, you cannee change the laws of Physics Jim. Economics and physics are not interchangeable. Sure, with certain kinds of economic utility you can interchange the underlying mechanisms used to achieve it, but with chemical reactions necessary to sustain life, as one example, you cannot just swap on a cheaper element. Likewise you cannot change the energy density characteristics and EROEI of supply on one material because petroleum is priced out. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the science behind the problem.
Re:No Population Bomb by ChuckMcM on Sunday April 14, 2013 @03:09PM (#5547867)
I read Tuna's comment as disagreement with your claims, not nitpicking. Do you have any reasoning to support your claims that we'll run out of phosphorus or energy?
Re:No Population Bomb by richardjordan on Sunday April 14, 2013 @09:04PM (#5549175)
Phosphorous mining is incredibly energy intensive. It's relative proportion in the Earth's crust is not pertinent - what matters is its availability in extractable forms. Google phosphorous mining and you'll see the parent's claim that Phoshoprous production rates have peaked is well supported.
Re:No Population Bomb by fc2 on Sunday April 14, 2013 @12:25PM (#5547280)
Obviously that Al-Quaeda plan will fail as greater numbers does not translate into greater power anymore. Machines are replacing humans both in industry and the military so the group with the most capital is the one who will win the game.
Re:No Population Bomb by Spooky23 on Sunday April 14, 2013 @01:44PM (#5547530)
The Al-Quaeda (or Mexican nationalist) plan is a long game that has a track record of success.

In the US, formerly marginalized groups like Catholics (Irish/Italian/polish) and eastern european Jewish immigrant came to wield considerable power in the mid 20th century, owing largely to burgeoning numbers. The Catholics actively organized colleges, universities and fraternal organizations that brought young Catholics into the civil service ranks.

Re:No Population Bomb by fc2 on Sunday April 14, 2013 @02:39PM (#5547736)
It certainly has worked in the past but it won't anymore as the homo sapiens nears obsolescence.
Re:No Population Bomb by dsfasfasf on Sunday April 14, 2013 @01:52PM (#5547555)
>>Mexican Nationalist

Huh? Care to explain how did Mexico come into the picture when talking about Al-Qaeda?

Re:No Population Bomb by gyardley on Sunday April 14, 2013 @02:19PM (#5547655)
The parent believes there's parallels between the demography-driven expansion of radical Islamism in certain countries (I'm guessing in Europe, although he didn't specify) and and the demography-driven expansion of Mexican nationalism in the American Southwest.
Re:No Population Bomb by Spooky23 on Sunday April 14, 2013 @10:28PM (#5549411)
I meant to remove it, it's a distraction. There are Mexican political groups who advocate for a similar policy to regain control of many western states, who they believe were unjustly ceded from Mexico.

These folks are very much in the fringe, and I shouldn't have mentioned it,