News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Thesis Hatement by crusso on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:15AM (#5498170)
Don't most of us think, "Duh?" to an article proclaiming that getting/being a PhD in Literature is hard and mostly pointless?

Upper level education costs a lot of money and involves years of time, don't these people think about what they want to do with their lives? Don't they do at least cursory research into what that degree will mean to their careers?

Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges have many of them. These days, research on the Internet (these are pre-PhD Lit students, don't they know how to Google?) makes it simple to look up salaries, opportunities to be hired, personal stories from those in the career, etc.

Maybe this trend toward people realizing that many degrees are near useless is just a result of the economy and tougher times finally making the practicality of education paramount. It seems a shame that you need bad circumstances for people to evidence some common sense, though.

Re:Thesis Hatement by earlyresort on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:52AM (#5498754)
About a decade ago, I left a humanities Ph.D. program at Stanford after finishing the coursework, but before starting the dissertation. In my experience, my classmates thought very hard about what they wanted to do with their lives, and were very aware of the career risk involved - if not when they entered the Ph.D. program, certainly by a couple years in. (Hanging out in the graduate lounge with the eighth-year Ph.D. students will do that to you.)

However, most of my classmates were so intensely interested in researching their specialities that they decided the risk was worth taking. After all, it's not like they're particularly suffering during grad school. Grad school in the humanities gives you blissful amounts of time to really geek out in the speciality of your choice, and at top-flight universities, the first few years are free (except for the opportunity cost.) If you get in, your basic expenses and tuition are covered.

Note how we lionize entrepreneurs who intensely pursue a low-probability dream, whether they succeed or fail, while grad students pursuing their own low-probability dream get nothing but scorn. Odd, no? What needs to be changed isn't necessarily grad school, but academic culture - particularly its attitudes towards and adaption to failure. If their community was as understanding of their own failures as ours is of our own, perhaps there wouldn't be such drama about their low rate of success.

Re:Thesis Hatement by crusso on Friday April 05, 2013 @01:49PM (#5499890)
Note how we lionize entrepreneurs who intensely pursue a low-probability dream, whether they succeed or fail, while grad students pursuing their own low-probability dream get nothing but scorn.

I disagree with your characterization that grad students are getting scorn. At least in my post, I don't intend to scorn. Maybe a "marked lack of sympathy for a self-made mess" would be what I'm trying to convey. I also disagree that there is a significant commonality between entrepreneurs and grad students because of their probability of success.

I'm just wondering why PhD students are surprised that higher degrees in the humanities aren't the easy gravy train they imagined. It seemed pretty obvious to me 20 years ago. Seems easily researchable 20 years ago. As time has gone by, it has just seemed more and more obvious.

What needs to be changed isn't necessarily grad school, but academic culture - particularly its attitudes towards and adaption to failure

I disagree again. Making it nicer to fail won't help those people. Opening their eyes to the real risk vs reward scenario earlier on would.

Conflating the entrepreneurial and academic communities as far as the understanding of failure doesn't help. Entrepreneurs who fail learn important lessons about what doesn't work and are encouraged to dust themselves off and apply what they've learned. They're still entrepreneurs when they try again.

Academics who fail while working on obscure/useless PhDs should most properly learn to stop being academics.

Re:Thesis Hatement by MatthewPhillips on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:52AM (#5498394)
No. Up until very recently (the most recent recession, perhaps), simply having a college degree was thought of as being a road to a comfortable middle class life. To this day career counselling focuses almost completely on interests and lifestyle and ignores salary. Unless a student has a mentor to guide them, it is very easy to go through college blistfully unaware of the realities that exist once you are in the job market.
Re:Thesis Hatement by crusso on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:09AM (#5498484)
I don't agree with your assessment that this is a completely recent phenomenon.

"Is a college degree enough?" was a pervasive question when I got out of undergrad in 1991 since we were in a recession. My placement center and many magazines had "What is this degree worth?" compilations. This same information has been available online for at least the last 10+ years.

Ironically, I always thought of myself as being pretty blissfully unaware and unthoughtful of my own career and where I was headed... but I knew what my salary and job prospects were for my career before I settled on my major when I was a Sophomore in college.

Re:Thesis Hatement by MatthewPhillips on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:22AM (#5498572)
Sounds like you were a much better planner than most college students. I don't think that salary research is of much help for 18 year olds. It's hard to gauge what a good salary is at that age. This is where mentorship and parenting can be of great help. But we're still at a point where a minority of adults have college degrees so many parents believe sending college is the silver bullet to a good life.
Re:Thesis Hatement by eavc on Friday April 05, 2013 @11:36AM (#5499031)
>To this day career counselling focuses almost completely on interests and lifestyle and ignores salary.

What's your experience with this? I've found earnings and job market to be regular features of career counseling sessions.

Re:Thesis Hatement by sopooneo on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:29AM (#5498611)
It is not pointless. It is just not lucrative. There is certainly plenty to be fixed in the world of higher education, but if we solely follow the money we run the risk of turning our great universities into nothing more than 21st century trade schools.
Re:Thesis Hatement by wisty on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:54AM (#5498405)
> Every high school has some sort of career counselor. Colleges have many of them.

They typically won't tell a student "sure, you can go for a PhD, but it's a waste of time." Schools and colleges tend to be biased towards thinking more education is always better.

Re:Thesis Hatement by dhstylez on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:57AM (#5498783)
There was a time in high school where I came to the realization that I learned material better doing independent study than in actual lectures/classes. Reading/studying on my own allowed me to learn in a more focused atmosphere. Lectures seemed like a waste, time spent scribing what was being 'taught' (for review later) versus actually absorbing material. Also, I felt that a lot of my time was wasted on topics that I really didn't care for and was quite painful (American & European History come to mind).

I brought this up to my guidance counselor and asked why I was wasting my time in high school when I could just as easily buy a book. Half-considered dropping out of high school and focusing my studies on topics that were interesting (physics, chemistry, cs, math, and possibly finance).

Our dialogue went something like:

GC: Uhh...don't drop out. You should stay in school it's good for you

Me: But I learn better straight from the book, it's what I'm doing for my courses now anyway...

GC: You need to have teachers

Me: Why?

GC: It's hard to get into [a reputable?] college without graduating from high school.

Me: ...

Kind of wish I did drop out back then. I would have probably spent a lot of my time honing a particular craft, although CS and Finance/Accounting seem to be the easiest choices (lower cost of entry compared to chemistry/physics/biology - requiring labs).

tl/dr: I wanted to drop out of high school and study independently. Guidance counselor encouraged me to stay in school. Wish I left so that I could focus on interesting subject areas.

Re:Thesis Hatement by idm on Friday April 05, 2013 @12:28PM (#5499384)
Once you get to PhD level, you need to be an independent student. The best students are. In order to get there, it's useful to be independent all along the way, typically by riffing on the constraints of the various assignments you complete.

If you're not into the structured part at all, then it will chafe from friction. However, the structure is definitely there for a reason because, if you're really pushing the limits, you'll be thankful for the times when you stumble and there is a structure to fall back on.

So you're left with two choices that maximize independent learning: 1) drop out or 2) make it past undergrad and become a master student.

I'm in a PhD program right now, but some of the best stuff I'm learning is happening through Coursera. ...and that's great, but the fact that I have a community of other full-time students and researchers to work with makes all the difference. If I were just sitting in a room learning for learning's sake, it would be totally different. I feel really lucky that I can put my ideas into practice, and I totally love the academic environment for facilitating that. To me, it's worth it.

Re:Thesis Hatement by rapala on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:16AM (#5498533)
They may also get funding based on graduations. PhD students are also fuel for the research in universities, and possible future researchers themselves.
Re:Thesis Hatement by firefoxman1 on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:33AM (#5498275)
> Well, someone also has to not die from small-cell lung cancer to give the disease its 6 percent survival rate, but would you smoke four packs a day with the specific intention of being in that 6 percent? No, because that’s stupid.

Yet lots of people smoke even though they're fully aware of the risks. It appears that the author knew of the job outlook for a Lit PhD all along but chose to ignore it. I think we all exist in that optimistic dream-world state of mind at some point.

Re:Thesis Hatement by jseliger on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:46AM (#5498358)
Don't most of us think, "Duh?" to an article proclaiming that getting/being a PhD in Literature is hard and mostly pointless?

We should, but too many people don't and keep going into academia anyway (I was one; everyone thinks they're different, but I can at least say I had some ulterior motives).

For at least a decade, lawyers and law students have been arguing that law school is a bad deal, and it really took until 2012 for that to sink in. I think we're seeing a similar process unfolding around grad school more generally.

Academic grad school isn't in most cases as pernicious as law school, because if the school is paying you, even some trivial amount, quitting after two years is easy, but many of the basic supply and demand problems remain.

Re:Thesis Hatement by zerr on Friday April 05, 2013 @09:56AM (#5498414)
Well, there is a PhD requirement wall for many cool jobs out there, including at Microsoft Research and alike.
Re:Thesis Hatement by jeremyjh on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:38AM (#5498660)
This article isn't about engineering or computer science degrees that are applicable in industry. It is about humanities degrees that seem to have only one career destination: a tenured professorship.
Re:Thesis Hatement by culled on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:14AM (#5498517)
A humanities PhD requirement?
Re:Thesis Hatement by zerr on Friday April 05, 2013 @10:29AM (#5498613)
Hah, no. I meant PhD in relevant discipline. In the case I mentioned, that would be Computer Science & related fields.