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Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by calinet6 on Monday April 01, 2013 @07:46PM (#5476710)
Rockstars are a myth. So are low-level engineers who "know what they're doing." Hire smart people who can learn new things instead of resume bullet points and/or mythological creatures.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by tzaman on Monday April 01, 2013 @08:09PM (#5476830)
> Rockstars are a myth

No they are not. One would think it's easy to find smart people who can learn new things, but I've dealt with both young and senior developers (by senior I mean writing code 15+ years) and was amazed how most of them feel comfortable being completely ignorant of new technologies/libraries/frameworks/best practices/whatever.

I've met a rockstar the other day, and could feel him being the one I'd hire immediately. It happens once or twice a year for me.

You might not call them rockstars, but in my book, they are.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by btilly on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @12:53AM (#5477760)
...and was amazed how most of them feel comfortable being completely ignorant of new technologies/libraries/frameworks/best practices/whatever.

I don't know how to judge that comment.

It is true that if you take anyone who is competent and ask them to teach you something that they learned in the last year, they should be able to come up with something. If not, then you've likely got "1 year of experience, 15 times". However my experience of people who think that they can judge people in the way you are judging them will judge by asking random questions about random technologies. Which is basically rolling the dice - if the person is exploring the same things that you are, then they get the gold star, otherwise you are convinced that they don't.

Let me give you a concrete example. You ask me what my primary language is. Perl, but right now I'm doing a bit of work in C++. Now you know that I'm a dinosaur because I'm using archaic languages. But don't notice that I have actually programmed in a host of other languages, and at this point learning the latest language is not going to help me be better at what I do. If I need it, I'll learn it then.

You ask me something about promises and jQuery and I draw a blank. I never liked front end work, and I've been working on back end stuff for the last decade. Boom, I'm a dinosaur in your books. But ask me what I'm reading, and you'll find out that I'm working through a book on hierarchical Bayesian modeling. I've also been doing some thinking about how people fail to understand the statistics behind A/B tests, and have been working on a series of articles that a lot of people seem to like.

In short, it is likely that you would quickly judge me poorly. Yet I believe that this reflects more on your judgement than my abilities.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by el_fuser on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @09:29AM (#5479114)
It's so easy to wrongly screen out senior devs for the reasons you mention. I've seen JR devs want to ask tricky algorithm questions, because that's still fresh in their minds from school... I've seen mid level devs ask the framework gotchas because that's the world they're in...

Coders have misconstrued fizzbuzz into a whiteboard pissing contest because they want a binary yes/no interview framework... But that causes them to miss the forest for all the trees.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by tzaman on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @07:57AM (#5478760)
From what you have written I can see you don't suck (I'd need to meet you and see some of your code to actually assess you're good :). You see, you used words like "Bayesian", "Promises". Guys that I was writing about not only don't know what promises are, they don't give a fuck either. A rockstar (in my book, at least) would hear about them and google them as soon as possible.

So at the end of the day, it's not really about experience, it's the attitude.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by btilly on Wednesday April 03, 2013 @01:21PM (#5487457)
The Bayesian stuff that I'm going through has zero pretensions to being the latest and greatest.

I only know "Promises" because I saw that on HN recently. However the concept behind JavaScript promises is one that I've seen before (I first saw it buried in a sideways way inside of http://search.cpan.org/~karasik/IO-Lambda/) and the name "promises" already has a spot reserved in my brain for their use in infinite streams. Therefore if someone mentions JavaScript promises to me again in 6 months I'll draw a blank.

There are some code samples linked in the articles in http://elem.com/~btilly/ab-testing-multiple-looks/index.html if you want to look. I wasn't writing that code for anyone except myself, so it isn't particularly pretty. (It did get the job done though.)

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by randallsquared on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @09:54AM (#5479245)
By your criteria, everyone on HN is a rock star. I think that might be too broad. :)
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by _pmf_ on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @05:03AM (#5478324)
> and was amazed how most of them feel comfortable being completely ignorant of new technologies/libraries/frameworks/best practices/whatever.

They are probably equally amazed that you are not able to discriminate between fads and/or half-assed rehashes of decade-old technologies and actual new technologies.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by anonymoushn on Monday April 01, 2013 @10:07PM (#5477266)
Do these people stand out by building better products that they can show to you, or do they just use trendy technologies to build products of the same quality as anyone else?
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by pyre on Monday April 01, 2013 @10:44PM (#5477377)
He/she may have just successfully communicated their passion for the craft.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by dyno12345 on Monday April 01, 2013 @11:52PM (#5477598)
Trying to hire rockstars is a waste of time.

You should hire someone if they will create more value than it costs to employ them. That's it. It is irrational to do anything otherwise.

So many SV companies seem obsessed with creating islands of purity.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by zanny on Monday April 01, 2013 @10:49PM (#5477390)
I'm not a rockstar at all (I'm barely passable) but I would never work on a project not understanding the entire tech stack, from the base language to all libraries in play. That is how you get security gotchas where you dump your passwords in plaintext or let anyone into the admin panel.

I've spent the last 3 weeks reading documentation around qt 5 in preparation for some 5.1 mobile development I plan on doing, for example.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by khuey on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @12:28AM (#5477694)
Down to the programming language is hardly the entire stack. There's also the VM the language runs in, the operating system, the assembly language the CPU executes, so on and so on down to the transistors in the CPU. At some point you realize you can't understand the entire stack.

(In case you thought these issues didn't affect you: http://bugs.python.org/issue13703)

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by calinet6 on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @09:09AM (#5479032)
You can, and you should. Learn how an ALU works and how an instruction runs on bare silicon. Learn what silicon doping is and how transistors work to actually create a digital logic gate out of analog concepts. Learn how to design your own processor in a simulator, and how the clock frequency affects your whole chip.

First and foremost, it's fun for anyone interested in engineering to begin with. Second, for programmers, it gives you a tactile experience of programming, and a real respect for what Assembly language really is and what it does, why a compiler is important, how interpreted languages are run differently, and why optimizing your code is important.

You will never know the direct effect that this secondary understanding will have, but the unknowable effects here will be wholly positive, I guarantee it.

I remember one semester in college where it clicked for me... I was taking CS61C, machine structures (basically learning C and how it translates to Assembly) and EE40 (basically learning electronics and how silicon works, and how processors work at an electronic level) and suddenly I understood at least on a basic level how everything worked. The code you type in gets compiled to ASM which gets loaded into memory which the processor loads instruction-by-instruction into registers which are represented by the states of transistors which are loaded each clock cycle by the switching of voltages on a germanium-doped silicon plate which causes the voltage to swing at a certain predictable speed at a given frequency which is controllable and engineered to tolerances which put the whole thing in sync. Holy shit. And each part can be understood in isolation, combined, and it makes sense. It's engineering at its best—break down the problem, understand the tolerances, rinse (with a HF acid wash) and repeat. No single part of it is beyond the realm of understanding, but together they build a system of such complexity, and it's amazing and beautiful that it all works as well as it does.

Knowing this—yes, it makes me think about programming differently.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @03:18AM (#5478082)
When you say new technologies, do you mean actual technological inventions or innovations, or just the latest trending web framework to spawn a fad of conferences?

Because, yes, I'm relatively comfortable not caring about technologies that will return to complete obscurity within 6-18 months.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by lhnz on Monday April 01, 2013 @08:16PM (#5476869)
Smart people who can learn new things are the rockstars. (Even though in actuality this term is a joke turned into a marketing term to attract confident developers.)
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by waterlesscloud on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:02PM (#5477052)
"Smart people who can learn new things"

That seems like a pretty low bar.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by lhnz on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:15PM (#5477106)
Depends what you define as smart, and what you define as new. Also who is accessible and verifiable.

I consider it a low bar to have repositories on GitHub or answers on StackOverflow yet the fact is that in London this group numbers in the thousands. This isn't all of the talented people but it gives you an idea of the rarity.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by nollidge on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:14PM (#5477100)
Maybe look at it as can and will learn new things. Plenty of people are not so motivated.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by calinet6 on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @10:34AM (#5479485)
The correct thought to have next is "Why?"

The answer makes that into a complex statement, and if your company can solve that problem, then it has solved a great many problems.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by tracker1 on Monday April 01, 2013 @08:52PM (#5477014)
"Rockstars" may be a myth... but developers who are exponentially more effective than others, with more maintainable code are not.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by pekk on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:05PM (#5477058)
Exponentially more effective, meaning that what Joe writes in 3 years Jim can write in one day?
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by nostrademons on Monday April 01, 2013 @11:14PM (#5477482)
That's entirely possible. Joe spends 3 years writing a program. Jim realizes that the program doesn't need to be written, and that if you frame the problem in a different way or use other resources available to you, you can come up with a better solution without writing any code.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by tracker1 on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:49PM (#5477214)
Okay... more like, Joe can get done in a day what would take Jim a week.. or Joe can do more in a month, than Jim could do in a year. Perhaps the exponent is a bit off.. but more than cumulative output was implied.

A lot of this coming from being able to expect/plan for future enhancements/changes than the one-off output. My own personal reference with this comes from managing several projects with local and overseas teams with varying degrees of experience.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by dchichkov on Monday April 01, 2013 @11:48PM (#5477587)
No.

Exponential effectiveness can only come from improving maintainability, readability and reducing code size. Fact that minimalistic approach also diminishes original development time is only a minor side effect. By the way, a true rockstar developer most of the time reduces code size and improves readability while adding features.

So when you see next time a commit, that adds features and reduces code size, - you know who you are dealing width.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by dagw on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @05:57AM (#5478418)
Maybe not that extreme, but factor in things like future maintenance costs and lost productivity due to Joe's code being slow, unstable and buggy and you're probably not too far off.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by sybhn on Monday April 01, 2013 @09:05PM (#5477059)
i always thought that rockstars are smart, driven people who were able to achieve substantial results because of favorable circumstances. The term itself is laughable at best, especially when self proclaimed!
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by aurelianito on Monday April 01, 2013 @11:18PM (#5477501)
I thought the same until I actually worked with one. This guy can build things in a week that a group of 5 competent programmers will do in a month.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by bmj on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @07:25AM (#5478647)
But, as `sybhn said, did that guy call himself a rock star?

My manager is very similar--his mind works about twice as fast as mine, and he's very productive. He'd never, ever call himself a "rock star" though.

Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by aurelianito on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @04:40PM (#5481930)
He will not call himself a rockstar but he is quite aware of his skill.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by dyno12345 on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @09:16AM (#5479057)
And yet he doesn't get paid proportional to that ratio. He probably makes 20% more.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by aurelianito on Tuesday April 02, 2013 @04:41PM (#5481936)
Nop. He is one of the company founders and he is probably getting a lot of money out of his job.
Re:Dear HN "Who's Hiring" responders by cunac on Wednesday April 03, 2013 @05:01PM (#5489029)
if you spend enough time in industry hopefully you will cross path with some "mythological creatures"