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Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by kragen on Monday March 18, 2013 @12:44PM (#5395326)
This is a lot like "citizens shouldn't be allowed to vote for a candidate opposing their current Senator, because incumbent Senators get re-elected 99% of the time anyway, and when they don't, it's usually a disaster for their constituents." Well, yes, those facts are true, but they don't justify the conclusion. In fact, they justify a rather opposite conclusion: if incumbent Senators almost never lose elections, and web sites are unusable with images and JavaScript turned off, maybe we should consider changing the system to force those things.

One fundamental premise of free software is that users are responsible for the software running on their computer, and therefore have the right to make that software do what they want. They have the right to accept SSL certificates from who they want, to use the amount of disk space they want, and so on. And the fact that only a tiny minority of users understand the security implications of having China's root certificate installed in their browser is not an argument for taking away their option to uninstall it. It's an argument that SSL's trust model is severely broken.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by wpietri on Monday March 18, 2013 @03:23PM (#5396531)
What is the benefit you imagine from trying to force everybody to build websites that are usable without JS and images?

Because as far as I can tell, that battle was lost about 10 years ago.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by nitrogen on Monday March 18, 2013 @04:52PM (#5397061)
Just as one example, accessibility for blind users. Also, pages that work without images and JavaScript are more likely to be machine readable; I still want to see one of the the early visions of the web come to pass, where "User-Agent" doesn't have to be a web browser.
Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by wpietri on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @02:03PM (#5402521)
Accessibility is important, but it's not a reason for stopping progress. If it were, we never would have had computers at all. The solution there is more investment in making new technologies accessible, not preventing new approaches altogether.

That latter thing isn't really a benefit. Or if it is, it's satisfying your personal aesthetic sense. I too happen to think that past version of the future was awesome. But I also liked the future where we all used jetpacks to fly up to our long-haul zeppelins. That's no reason to ban airplanes.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by kragen on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @06:14PM (#5403965)
You seem to be saying that web pages that are unusable without JavaScript or images represent "progress". For something to be "progress", it has to be both new and better than the old things. In fact, though, it's worse and not better, and it's not even new; it's a throwback to the days before the web, where you had to download special-purpose client software and learn a new UI to access each new online information resource, and bringing together information from different online resources was difficult.

To use your metaphor, this is not the future where air travel is cheap and ubiquitous; this is the future where the Concorde no longer flies, you must submit to a strip search to board an airline, and Meigs Field has been bulldozed.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by wpietri on Wednesday March 20, 2013 @03:29AM (#5406029)
I am saying that the people making more dynamic websites believe that what they are doing is better than ye olden dayes of the webbe. Sometimes they're wrong; sometimes they're not. When people make new things that they think are better than the old things, that's called progress.

I'm fascinated that you could work in tech and still manage to seize one small moment in technological time and declare it the peak of goodness. You realize, don't you that people do that with every moment of technological time?

I'm not denying that by your criteria the web was better then. I'm just saying that seizing upon the particular set of aesthetic criteria from the age when one is most impressionable and decrying all that comes after as worse has never been an effective way of changing things back.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by kragen on Friday March 22, 2013 @06:54AM (#5422214)
You are attributing points of view to me which I not only do not hold, but which I find insulting that you could think I hold. I am disappointed that the level of discourse in this forum has fallen so far.
Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by nitrogen on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @03:26PM (#5403010)
What sort of progress will be stopped by encouraging websites to present content as content instead of as an "app"? What specifically would you do to make websites that don't work without images or JavaScript more accessible, apart from making them work without images or JavaScript?

Jetpacks aren't widespread for important safety and technical reasons. The existence of search engines demonstrates that non-browser agents are technically possible.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by wpietri on Wednesday March 20, 2013 @03:32AM (#5406031)
Zeppelins are also technical possible. They're just not economically feasible.

People are often perfectly happy to present content as content. But when their economic interests lead them to another approach, aesthetic outrage from a tiny minority won't change that.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by pnathan on Monday March 18, 2013 @03:44PM (#5396664)
Agreed.

I need to be able to alter my root certs and other things. I can even teach other people how to do this.

If this is hard to do, it should be made easy.

Resist turning your software into a tablet.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by maxerickson on Monday March 18, 2013 @01:02PM (#5395471)
Usually, it's the incumbent senator that is no longer allowed to run for office.

(My point vaguely being that the rulemaking behavior you seek to lampoon actually has leaked that far into real life)

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by kragen on Monday March 18, 2013 @01:44PM (#5395820)
Oh, I'm well aware it's leaked that far into real life: it's the well-known Single Party Rule, as seen in the former Soviet Bloc, and in most dictatorships, where there's only one candidate on the ballot. And it's justified in exactly the same way: people don't know what's best for them, so the Party must decide on their behalf. It may be good in theory, but it's a corruption magnet.
Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by Retric on Monday March 18, 2013 @01:18PM (#5395588)
It's vary rare for senator's to be unable to run for office. Because the things that prevent winning are much wider than the list of things that prevent someone from running.

The most obvious being you can still run while in the middle of a murder trial up to the point where your convicted. But, good luck getting elected.

Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by maxerickson on Monday March 18, 2013 @01:22PM (#5395636)
Yeah, I used senator there, but I was euphemistically referring to term limits, not trying to imply that U.S. senators are subject to them.
Re:Checkboxes that kill your product by singleuse on Tuesday March 19, 2013 @05:18AM (#5399752)
Though marketing worked hard to push this idea, Firefox is not free software.