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Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by bitcartel on Saturday March 16, 2013 @11:31PM (#5387992)
It's theft from your family, plain and simple.

You still have a chance to stop this outrage, as it must pass your parliament, and then other Eurozone parliaments too.

Good luck.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by danieldk on Sunday March 17, 2013 @03:00AM (#5388436)
It's theft from your family, plain and simple.

I feel very sorry for the parent poster. But, no, it's not that simple. We as Europeans have been spending too much, we have added countries to the Eurozone that were not healthy enough financially so that France's finances would seem relatively ok. For years we the ignored tax evasion and corruption. We as voters and citizens were all part of the problem, and now everyone is going to pay.

If the EU didn't bail out Cyprus, his/her savings would be worthless, since their economy would've collapsed. If Cyprus' population is not going to pay heavily, the next bail-out may not be possible, because the populations of the countries lending the money might revolt. I live in The Netherlands, and there's not much solidarity left (which I think is stupid, but anyway).

Obviously, it is not a very good manner to seize funds, because the citizens of the next country that needs to be bailed out, will withdraw their savings beforehand.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by Nightrider on Sunday March 17, 2013 @04:34AM (#5388581)
But for some who dearly counted on those savings to pay rent or medicine, to be taken without their consent or knowledge, it is theft, plain and simple. No matter what opinionated armchair economists like you have to say.
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by danieldk on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:07AM (#5388712)
But for some who dearly counted on those savings to pay rent or medicine, to be taken without their consent or knowledge, it is theft, plain and simple.

Again, what's the alternative? Without the bail-out, government employees will lose their jobs, foreign assets are frozen, they'll be removed from the Eurozone, the economy will collapse, and they cannot buy medicines either. Sure they could increase taxes, freeze or decrease wages, etc. But the net effect will be the same - people will lose money.

No matter what opinionated armchair economists like you have to say.

This has little to do with armchair criticism. My pension fund has been downgrading as well, there is a lot of uncertainty on what will be left when my generation retires. The thing is, we have to blame ourselves as well: in electing populist leaders rather than visionaries, for our unbounded consumerism, and for participating in corruption. E.g. in my country:

- People are obsessed with this populist right-wing politician (Geert Wilders) who dominates every discussion, always shifting the attention to muslims, Eastern Europeans, and how we are wasting money on Greece. In the meanwhile we have a mortgage bubble that is almost bursting and a healthcare system that becomes unaffordable. Moderate politicians, that get relatively little attention, have been warning the electorate for years.

- People buy expensive gadgets and phone subscriptions, without really having the money.

- Although there is relatively little government corruption, lots of people try to evade taxes at every possible occasion (e.g. through unreported employment of painters, construction workers, etc.).

- We dislike the banks and bonuses, but refuse to transfer our money to more ethical banks.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by moe on Sunday March 17, 2013 @10:33AM (#5389289)
Again, what's the alternative?

Take it from the >100k bank accounts. Only from the >100k bank accounts.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by 1337biz on Sunday March 17, 2013 @11:17AM (#5389466)
No, and the reason is very simple. The whole discussion shows, that you can have zero trust in national governments. It is therefore save to assume, that you can not count the slightest bit on any retirement plans that have some form of government involvement. Even if you only get some modest apartment in a European metro area as you personal retirement plan, you are way beyond the 100k. Do you really want to steal the money from people who saved money all life just to have some decent retirement? (The "bank account" argument doesn't really count, as the BCG report outlines how they are gunning for real estate owners next).
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by moe on Sunday March 17, 2013 @11:58AM (#5389628)
Do you really want to steal the money from people who saved money all life

You seem to be arguing they should not have taken any money at all, which I of course agree with.

My point was that if they take money (which they did) then they should at least have spared the <100k accounts. I was trying to give the simple answer to the rhetorical question "what's the alternative?".

They overstepped two red lines here. Applying a sudden-tax to their citizens is the first, and taking it from the people who can least spare it is the second. My response was only concerned with the second line, because that is the really explosive one (civil unrest, bank run).

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by 1337biz on Sunday March 17, 2013 @01:19PM (#5390039)
I personally find it great that they didn't spare the <100k accounts. It would have been much easier to do otherwise, as the "let's just take it from the rich" perspective is easy to sell nowadays in Europe. But taking it from those with under 100k accounts takes the fight to the streets and let politicians "feel" the backslash.
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by danieldk on Sunday March 17, 2013 @01:51PM (#5390187)
I don't know why you were downvoted, because it is an idea that should at least be considered (and I suppose that they did).
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by dmoo on Sunday March 17, 2013 @05:23AM (#5388656)
It's not really the first time this has happened, it's just the scale that's different. Pension funds in Ireland have been reduced in a similar fashion. http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6830

It's also probably worth noting that in these bailout situations the smaller countries typically do what they are told since the option of not being bailed out are thought to be worse. Where it stings is when the interests of large international financial institutions seem to be placed above those of the citizens of the country involved http://www.notourdebt.ie/ But when you join the EU this is what can happen when things go wrong.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by untog on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:04AM (#5388705)
And of course you are neither opinionated nor an armchair economist?

Do you consider taxation to be theft?

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by petercooper on Sunday March 17, 2013 @06:32AM (#5388770)
There's a vast difference between a "we'll be taking 25% of your income each year" tax and a "we're taking 6% of your already taxed savings with immediate effect" tax. Taxes you know about in advance are more just than those enacted over a weekend with no time to prepare your household budget.

I'm not big into the "taxation is theft" rhetoric but I empathise with those who see certain forms of taxation that way.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by vacri on Sunday March 17, 2013 @02:34AM (#5388387)
It's not 'plain and simple', it's a complex situation involving complicated relationships between different parties and knock-on effects. If you want actual 'plain and simple' banking, keep your money under your mattress.
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday March 17, 2013 @03:08AM (#5388455)
Convert your money to gold and store it under a mattress. Libertarians are funny that way :)
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by eurleif on Saturday March 16, 2013 @11:35PM (#5388002)
>You still have a chance to stop this outrage, as it must pass your parliament, and then other Eurozone parliaments too.

Citation needed? My understanding was that this was already in motion, and is going into effect before the banks open on Tuesday.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by bitcartel on Saturday March 16, 2013 @11:59PM (#5388057)
Cyprus makes the key decision.

"Cyprus's parliament will decide on Sunday whether savers must pay a levy on bank deposits under terms for an international bailout to avert bankruptcy - with approval far from certain... Cyprus's parliament was due to convene at 4 p.m. (1400 GMT) in an emergency session"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/17/us-eurozone-cyprus...

Only then will other Eurozone parliaments rubber-stamp the bail-out funds. If for some unlikely reason the bail-out is not approved, I imagine the Cypriot government would have to swiftly return the money or face a very angry mob.

"Hours after euro zone ministers approved 10 billion euros ($13 billion) for Cyprus to stave off bankruptcy, Wolfgang Schaeuble briefed parliament's budget committee and said he would ask the lower house - which has a say on all euro zone rescues - to support the deal.

The Bundestag will likely have to vote on the outline of the deal this week, which is the last before the Easter break. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has a majority in the lower parliamentary house.

Schaeuble said the house would then likely debate the full Cyprus program in the second half of April before giving its final go-ahead."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/16/us-eurozone-cyprus...

"If the finance ministers reach a deal at Friday's meeting, it's likely to be a broad political decision, with technical details left for next week. The bailout would still have to be approved by parliaments in several eurozone nations, though EU officials say everything should be done by the end of the month."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/international-bu...

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by justincormack on Sunday March 17, 2013 @07:34AM (#5388873)
Technically the money has not been taken yet, bank accounts have just been frozen to keep at least that amount in them (or more). The vote has been postponed until Monday, and it may well not pass, presumably which is why there is a delay. Given that the politicians were just elected a few weeks ago saying this would not happen I imagine some are reluctant to vote in favour.
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by mikeash on Sunday March 17, 2013 @11:05AM (#5389416)
Are you one of those folks who thinks that all taxation is theft?
Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by bitcartel on Sunday March 17, 2013 @12:41PM (#5389846)
Not at all.

With personal taxes, you can disagree over the amount to be paid, you have time to prepare your accounts and get your finances in order, you can even refuse to pay and negotiate a settlement with the taxman.

In contrast, Cypriot deposit holders are going to wake up on Tuesday and simply find their money gone.

Re:The Cyprus bail-out: Unfair, short-sighted and self-defea... by mikeash on Sunday March 17, 2013 @03:36PM (#5390649)
A lot of the taxes I pay aren't like that. They get taken out of my paycheck whether I like it or not. I think some of that is strictly-speaking optional and can be paid separately, but not all.