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Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by mdkess on Saturday March 02, 2013 @09:33AM (#5309567)
When newspapers are running headlines about how some stock is going to double in value, it's time to get as far away as possible.

Besides, if you're in technology, you shouldn't be investing in tech companies. Since most of us are technologists, if we're ever out of a job for the long term, it'll probably because of a downturn in the technology industry. If our savings are in tech companies, our savings will be down too.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by wes-exp on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:44AM (#5309792)
if you're in technology, you shouldn't be investing in tech companies

Warren Buffett avoided investing in technology companies during the dot-com tech bubble because he didn't understand them. So according to the most legendary investor of all time, understanding what you invest in is crucial.

To exclude investing in tech companies because your income comes from tech companies might be a good strategy to diversify and mitigate against short-term market fluctuations. But it's an incredibly stupid strategy if you're shooting for growth and willing to accept some level of risk. Because your tech expertise gives you the best chance of actually investing intelligently in tech.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by ajross on Saturday March 02, 2013 @11:35AM (#5309970)
I think you're missing the point. Yes, if you're willing to "accept risk" then obviously tech can be part of any portfolio.

But the grandparent post was making a point about risk analysis that you seem to have missed. Because we are (presumably) already employed in the tech sector, we are already exposed to risk in that sector, even with nothing in our portfolios. A tech downturn is going to impact us disproportionately already, so adding exposure in our investment portfolios is adding extra risk in a way that it is not for a more typical investor.

That doesn't mean "don't invest in technology", but it does mean that you need to be more careful about how you reason about it and not just brush the decision off as your willingness to "accept some level of risk."

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by wes-exp on Saturday March 02, 2013 @07:07PM (#5311765)
FWIW, I get (and got) the point. Restating the gp's arguments doesn't somehow make them more true. But let me clarify my own point.

Suppose that industry X is the best industry to be in from a long term income and investment point of view, but that it's volatile in the short term. If the volatility is dangerous to you and you can't accept that level of risk, then diversification of your income and investments is wise.

However, if you have sufficient risk tolerance, e.g., enough money in the bank and time on your hands to survive through the fluctuations, then it is still better to be all-in on industry X for your overall growth. Because it performs better over the long term.

I'm kind of assuming here, for the sake of argument, that you maintain the same income+investment industry mix over time rather than changing it up periodically and trying to beat fluctuations. But, I hope this makes my point more clear.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by ajross on Sunday March 03, 2013 @04:50PM (#5315380)
It's clear, but it's still wrong: your risk tolerance analysis appears to include "money in the bank ... to survive through the fluctuations" of the market, but not to survive a simultaneous loss of your job. Which, because it is in the same sector as your investment portfolio, is very likely to be correlated with those downward fluctuations.

Stated again, and for the third time: for technical professionals, investment of personal assets in the tech industry carries higher risk than it does for fund managers and other general investors. If you aren't investing with that in mind, you're fundamentally doing it wrong. This isn't a question of "risk tolerance", it's a question of correct mathematics.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by wes-exp on Thursday March 07, 2013 @12:01PM (#5338665)
For the second time you treat me like an idiot and assume that I'm missing the obvious and excluding the income aspect. I'm not. Let me come out and state it triple explicitly so it's clear to you:

I see the income aspect. I realize that a loss of income is costly. I realize that income performance is correlated to the industry it's in and hence correlated with stocks in the same industry. That's the whole basis for the discussion and I see that. Jesus!

I see that, and I still disagree.

This is where both approaches can be right and this is the whole point I have been trying to make. For the sake of argument, suppose you have a trillion dollars in the bank and therefore infinite risk tolerance. Suppose also that your income is 100k. At this point, temporary loss of your income, which can also be reduced by unemployment pay, is wholly inconsequential compared to maximizing your gains in the stock market. If the tech sector pays back at 20% y/y (average) and the next best sector only pays back 5%, absolutely it's better to be in the tech sector even though your income comes from that. My example is unrealistic, but it serves a point: mathematically, it works. So the question is then how much risk (i.e. volatility) can you take in pursuit of maximizing returns? If you have a lot of assets, plenty. If you have no assets and therefore no risk tolerance, obviously diversifying your income from your investments is a good idea. But crucially, whether or not same-sector income/investment is a good idea all depends on how much risk (i.e. volatility) you can take.

Would you suggest Steve Jobs shouldn't have held Apple stock? I think it worked out pretty well for him.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by dasil003 on Saturday March 02, 2013 @11:06AM (#5309858)
Leaving aside the eggs-in-a-single-basket aspect, I think being too close could be a liability. You may read a lot of bearish press about Apple that emphasizes market share over profit share completely missing the point of Apple's culture and the fact that foregoing the standard protectionism is what allows them to pursue the next great product so much better than anyone else. You might be totally right in this thinking and yet still be screwed by the market because it's full of speculators subscribing the conventional wisdom. And it's tech, so totally plausible for them to hold the stock down until consumer tastes move on and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I see so much dubious analysis of Apple (eg. suggesting Apple could go the Dell route) that I'm getting tempted to go long, but it's a tremendous risk because it's so damn frothy.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by cma on Saturday March 02, 2013 @09:38AM (#5309589)
If "short anything newspapers are touting to double" were a viable strategy, it would quickly cease to be a viable strategy.
Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by mdkess on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:15AM (#5309689)
Well, strictly yes, of course you are correct.

I'm talking about boring investing though - slow, boring returns from boring companies. So when Forbes runs a headlines saying that AAPL will hit $1000, the stock ceases to be boring, and so in my mind, it's time to step aside for a bit.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by gte910h on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:16AM (#5309695)
I find this especially true for "Employee Stock Purchase Plans"

You should buy the stock for a discount and immediately sell it. This is because if the stock price falls, you have a huge chance of being a layoff.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by far_far_away on Saturday March 02, 2013 @09:39AM (#5309593)
This is so true and I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that way. In addition to that one could argue that investing in stocks (whatever the industry may be you are investing in) is a bad thing if you are not an insider. My brother who is a hacker and economist at the same time showed me studies that determined/proofed that the stock market is very irrational (I mean we all knew that but those studies showed this with scientific methods). I will ask him about those studies again - may be interesting to others as well.
Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by mdkess on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:09AM (#5309668)
I think the strategy of buying a diversified portfolio of large, boring companies doing core things that everyone needs is a pretty safe bet.

If you're investing, I think that you should have a gambling account too, because it's fun and keeps you interested. It should be far less than 10% of your portfolio, and you should recognize that it's play money instead of real savings.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by 6thSigma on Saturday March 02, 2013 @09:48AM (#5309612)
The day to day of the stock market is irrational, but long term investing isn't. If you're putting money in the stock market and not looking out 5+ years, you are simply gambling.
Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by far_far_away on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:38AM (#5309765)
This heavily depends on how the companies you are investing in perform in the mid-term. It is true that the stock market out performs other kind of investments but this is only true if you are not investing in let's say 2-3 companies but rather in an index or something similar. Investing in an index is much much less exciting than investing in 2-3 companies.
Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by 6thSigma on Saturday March 02, 2013 @12:49PM (#5310284)
> It is true that the stock market out performs other kind of investments but this is only true if you are not investing in let's say 2-3 companies but rather in an index or something similar.

It depends on what those 2-3 companies are. An index is certainly safer, but if you are good at determining growth prospects then you should absolutely be picking your own stocks.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by darkspaten on Saturday March 02, 2013 @10:49AM (#5309803)
> Besides, if you're in technology, you shouldn't be investing in tech companies.

I find that to be an odd maxim. Certainly one should limit exposure to acceptable risk tolerance… say 10-15% of portfolio; however, being in the industry we have significant insight into trends, viability, capital allocation, reputation, market forces, etc. Why wouldn't we leverage that knowledge for investment? When most CIOs were mocking AAPL, the stock was in the low $100s, it was a great time to invest for anyone who spotted the early trend.

Re:Apple Stock Just Crashed To A New Low by mistercow on Saturday March 02, 2013 @11:32AM (#5309961)
The "technology industry" is too just big and diverse to talk about as a single atomic unit. Hell, even software is too big to treat as a single unit. Don't invest in your specific field (or at least, don't put all of your investments there), but anyone who understands technology is in a better than average position to make smart tech investments.