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Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by scarmig on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:52PM (#5247987)
Reminds me a bit (apocryphal?) of the first test of the atomic bomb at Trinity.

All the famous scientists had put down bets on how big the explosion would be. Edward Teller, IIRC, had a macabre one: it would set off a chain reaction that would ignite the atmosphere through nitrogen and hydrogen fusion.

Calculations were done, and the possibility of it happening was shown to be one in a million. The test went ahead.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by gwern on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @09:48PM (#5248668)
It's not apocryphal. You can actually download the analysis they did and see the calculations for yourself. (I did; it was wasted on me.)

http://lesswrong.com/lw/rg/la602_vs_rhic_review/ (The link in Yudkowsky's essay seems to currently be down, but if you google the filename you find mirrors like www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00329010.pdf )

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by gamegoblin on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:18PM (#5248112)
Not a very wise bet. Even if he won, it would hardly matter!
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by raverbashing on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:05AM (#5249668)
Yes, if they were right, it wouldn't matter much, but it would energy a lot
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by martinced on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:19PM (#5248121)
"Calculations were done, and the possibility of it happening was shown to be one in a million."

"shown"!? "supposed" you mean right!? Or is there one in a million chance of this happening any time a nuclear bomb is/was tested?

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Tuna-Fish on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:31PM (#5248171)
That's not quite correct. The calculations disproved it to a certainty of one against a million.

Or, to put it in another way, the data they had clearly showed that it couldn't happen, but taking into account all known sources of errors, there was a one-in-a-million chance that the data they had was the result of random errors.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Filligree on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:27PM (#5248401)
..and a much larger chance that the scientists had made a mistake somewhere in the calculations.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by dmd on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:07PM (#5248306)
In their paper, Coleman and de Luccia noted:

The possibility that we are living in a false vacuum has never been a cheering one to contemplate. Vacuum decay is the ultimate ecological catastrophe; in the new vacuum there are new constants of nature; after vacuum decay, not only is life as we know it impossible, so is chemistry as we know it. However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated.

The second special case ... applies if we are now living in the debris of a false vacuum ... This case presents us with less interesting physics and with fewer occasions for rhetorical excess than the preceding one.

S. Coleman and F. De Luccia (1980). "Gravitational effects on and of vacuum decay". Physical Review D21: 3305.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by stephengillie on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:51PM (#5248475)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by potatohead00 on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:20PM (#5248358)
Even more proof that Douglas Adams saw this all coming

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." [1]

I can't believe I'm the first one to get this quote in :)

[1] http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Douglas_Adams/

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by dhughes on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @10:14PM (#5248747)
You're not someone else did but the quote was something completely different, now you've gone and changed it to a bizarre new quote ;)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by wcoenen on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:20PM (#5247815)
If the Everett's many-worlds interpretation is correct, this could be happening all the time. But we can only experience one of the world lines where our universe does not collapse.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Filligree on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:42PM (#5248444)
The old quantum suicide argument?

It's not an especially cheerful idea, to be honest. Even if that argument works -- and to be fair, this is about the best possible scenario for it -- it's too easy to generalize.

There's no particular reason you should limit your self-identification to just the other branches you exist in in this universe. The full argument is a bit oversized for this site, but.. consider that there are branches where you've got the exact same past as here (as far as you can tell), except that you're actually living in a simulation being run by some alien.

If you accept the notion of quantum suicide, and also provisionally this expanded version, then consider that even if the proportion of timelines in which you live in simulations (and thus, the credence you should give to such claims) is low now, a sufficient number of vacuum collapse events could actually change that over time.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by wcoenen on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:22AM (#5249715)
I don't mind that generalization. I feel that modal realism[1] is the only sensible way to explain why anything exists at all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_realism

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by baddox on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:50PM (#5248470)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Aardwolf on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @09:57AM (#5250724)
Can't work because "it" would have to predict the future...

When does it shift you to another parallel universe? At the moment your consciousness would get lost? At the moment your body gets wounded but your mind still experiences it? At the moment a bullet starts flying towards you?

What about dying from getting old, if "it" has to keep your mind alive, does it mean everyone eventually ends up experiencing a world where they get 10000+ years old while the rest doesn't?

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by wcoenen on Thursday February 21, 2013 @06:21AM (#5256793)
> When does it shift you to another parallel universe?

According to this interpretation there is no "shift", just copies. In fact, this interpretation is attractive exactly because it doesn't have the weird feature of the copenhagen interpretation where the wavefunction collapses when it is "observed", whatever that means.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by waps on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @09:43PM (#5248654)
Believe it or not "you"/your person/soul is completely part of the world, and thus getting duplicated without any knowledge of any of the others. No part of you exists independently of the laws of quantum mechanics.

So a more correct interpretation would be : there's infinitely many copies of you, each experiencing slightly different event, and while most survive (an infinite number), every moment in time there's a few (still an infinite number though) die horribly every moment in time.

Sooner or later it will be one of you reading this. :)

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by NPC82 on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @03:14AM (#5249459)
>Sooner or later it will be one of you reading this. :)

O_O ...

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Ygg2 on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @04:09AM (#5249569)
I think the good news that there is a smaller infinity of you reading stuff.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by jasonzemos on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:32PM (#5248421)
This reminded me of Schild's Ladder: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schilds_Ladder)

> ...the experiments unexpectedly create a bubble of something more stable than ordinary vacuum, dubbed novo-vacuum, that expands outward at half the speed of light as ordinary vacuum collapses to this new state at the border... The local population is forced to flee to ever more distant star systems to escape the steadily approaching border...

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by 3pt14159 on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:17AM (#5249705)
Wow this book looks f'ing awesome. I'm definitely going to read it.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by yk on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:21PM (#5248363)
It seems that npr is talking about this paper [1]. Where a simple Standard Model Higgs is assumed and then extrapolated to the Planck mass. (We already now that this does not work.) And the news is not that we all are going to die ( we knew this already), but the news [2] is actually that such a naive extrapolation gives a value for some coupling very close to 0 at the Planck Mass, which might hint at some interesting phenomena.

In addition the paper makes a nice sales pitch for a future electron-positron collider.

[1]http://pubdb.desy.de/fulltext/getfulltext.php?uid=23383-5971... (pdf)

[2] News for me, I am no specialist.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by wlesieutre on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:01PM (#5247721)
Both interesting and terrifying if this is true. The idea sounds a lot like Vonnegut's ice-nine, only for space instead of water.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by hardtke on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:23PM (#5247834)
It's exactly like ice-nine. The universe exists in some sort of meta-stable state. The usual argument against this sort of thing happening is that we'd already be dead. Cosmic ray interactions happen all the time at very high energies, so these interactions have already been seen in the universe. The LHC, however, pushes the energy limits towards unexplored territory -- due the fact that it is a collider, the center of mass energy of the LHC may exceed the highest ever cosmic ray collisions.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by klodolph on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:44PM (#5247955)
The LHC collision energy is around 7 TeV. GZK limit (theoretical maximum cosmic ray energy) is about 50,000,000 TeV. Particles have been observed with energies above the GZK limit.

You know the Higgs Boson as the "god particle". Well, there's also the "oh my god particle", which was a cosmic ray with observed energy on the order of 300,000,000 TeV.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Retric on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:03PM (#5248040)
However, only a small fraction of this energy would be available for an interaction with a proton or neutron on Earth, with most of the energy remaining in the form of kinetic energy of the products of the interaction. The effective energy available for such a collision is the square root of double the product of the particle's energy and the mass energy of the proton, which for this particle gives 7.5×1014 eV, roughly 50 times the collision energy of the Large Hadron Collider.

So, still not an issue, but not quite as far from omg collision energy's. And still no where near what can happen in and near black holes.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by yk on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:24PM (#5248148)
But the center of mass energy for a GZK proton colliding with a proton in the air is something like 100 TeV - 1 PeV. So still quite a bit higher than the LHC, but not by a factor of 10^7.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by hardtke on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @11:34PM (#5248977)
If the highest energy cosmic rays are nuclei, the energies available for particle production are comparable.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Keyframe on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:48PM (#5248233)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by throwaway2048 on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:54PM (#5247991)
for reference, the single particle had about as much kinetic energy as a pitched baseball, consider that trillions of photons and other particles normally hit you every second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh_my_god_particle

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Steuard on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @10:11PM (#5248740)
Just to be clear, none of the people in this article are claiming that producing Higgs boson particles is going to cause collapse of a (hypothetical) false vacuum. They're using the new data about the Higgs to learn about the existing state of the universe.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by jfasi on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:19PM (#5247809)
If there's nothing you can do about it, and no discernible consequences (we'd all cease to exist if it were to happen) why get upset?
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by Aardwolf on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:21PM (#5247819)
Because as a matter of fact it happens to be so tha
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by h0w412d on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:51PM (#5247975)
A comment that survives the end of the universe? Shit what kind of computer are you using? And more importantly, don't ever let it fall into the hands of a spammer...
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by austingunter on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:31PM (#5247876)
Well that was quick.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by muyuu on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:17AM (#5249704)
Well, it's not going to happen during our lif
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by 5partan on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:02PM (#5248036)
A self eating Universe? come on guys, i still struggle to make the change from the flat earth model to the geocentric model.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by powertower on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @10:48PM (#5248826)
So the bubble forms within, not outside?

Because I've heard it both ways before, and even in the article it mentions something about two bubbles that are separate from each other colliding.

In the later circumstances...

What I can't understand is how two universes that are "separated" from each other by a vacuum (no space-time fabric) could ever collide... As they are separate by a pure nothingness, they for all purposes exist inside different realms and have no chance of ever colliding as there is nothing for them to travel through to reach each other.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by 3pt14159 on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:20PM (#5247810)
Even if it expands at the speed of light, it would likely be outside of our observable universe though, right?
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by klodolph on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:38PM (#5247923)
Well, if the theory is correct, it would not be observable until the moment we suddenly all died.

But the important difference between "stable" and "metastable" is that metastable systems spontaneously collapse, whereas stable systems don't. According to the theory, we could be at a metastable vacuum energy state, which means that we could spontaneously drop to a lower energy state at any time. The difference between "metastable" and "unstable" is really just the time span involved.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by colomon on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @09:18PM (#5248572)
I found it very odd that the article seemed to insist we certainly had billions of years left -- how do we know the collapse didn't start billions of years ago?
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by tribe on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @11:42PM (#5249003)
I believe the article mentioned that signs of such an event would be visible in the cosmic microwave background radiation, and right now we have not seen them.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by splat on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @11:54PM (#5249038)
Since the bubble expands faster than the speed of light, it would not be visible in the CMB. The reason that there should be billions of years left is just a statement about probability. Given that the universe has already lasted for billions of years, it would be very unlikely for it to end tomorrow (in fact the odds would be about one in a trillion). So at the very least the universe should last for at least about as long as it's lasted so far (though it could last much longer).
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by colomon on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:02PM (#5253668)
As I understood the article, the bubble collapses at the speed of light.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're arguing that since we've had 15 billion years so far with no collapse, then odds are great that we've got billions more to go. My point is that if the bubble collapse is not instantaneous, then we don't actually know there's been no collapse so far.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by ElectroPrime on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:27AM (#5249727)
Actually, no, the bubble is supposed to expand at the speed of light.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by nickmain on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @08:31PM (#5248416)
Are you referring to the fact that the furthest galaxies are actually receding from us at faster than the speed of light (due to the expansion of space itself) ?
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by 3pt14159 on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:01AM (#5249653)
Yes. How would the bubble reach us?
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by tpollo on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @11:09PM (#5248883)
Lol, I'm pretty sure that's horse manure.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by nickmain on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @12:32AM (#5249138)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by dasil003 on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:47PM (#5247962)
Couldn't help noticing this post was 26 mins ago right now.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by russell on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:39PM (#5247930)
If it's outside our observable universe, would it ever get here? Maybe our universe get nibbled around the edges but still survives.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by apapli on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:39PM (#5247929)
I gather so - we wouldn't be able to see it "coming".
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by chris_mahan on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:15PM (#5248098)
it may already be coming... It may take another 100 million years to get to us...
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by michaelfeathers on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @06:30AM (#5249869)
Physicists Michael Turner and Frank Wilczek wrote ... that "without warning, a bubble of true vacuum could nucleate somewhere in the universe and move outwards at the speed of light, and before we realized what swept by us our protons would decay away."

Carpe Diem.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by aremie on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:42PM (#5247941)
"If you use all the physics that we know now and you do what you think is a straightforward calculation, it's bad news,"

That's exactly it, there is much more physics to discover and count in. People always think they know everything, at every point in history.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by mistercow on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:45PM (#5247960)
I'm pretty sure that scientists don't think they know everything. What leads me to believe this is that they keep building theories and doing experiments.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by richforrester on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:47PM (#5247967)
No, they don't.

If we thought we knew everything, we'd stop researching. They're called "theories" for a reason.

Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by nitrogen on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @09:31PM (#5248622)
That's not exactly the way the word "theory" is used in a scientific context. I'd say the scientific use of the word is more like that in "music theory". It's not intended to imply a lack of confidence.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by adam-f on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:57PM (#5248266)
This could be worse than the Silicon Valley and the housing market bubbles combined.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by jsien7 on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @06:24PM (#5247840)
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by jessriedel on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @10:09PM (#5248736)
Your article is referring to an accelerator-induced transition. The OP refers to a spontaneous transition.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by muloka on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @09:30PM (#5248620)
This sounds a bit like the plot of Fringe.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by arthulia on Wednesday February 20, 2013 @05:12AM (#5249690)
Phew, from the title I thought we were talking about soap bubbles. Just one more thing kids of this age would have to grow up without.
Re:If Higgs Boson Calculations Are Right, A 'Bubble' Could E... by krapp on Tuesday February 19, 2013 @07:02PM (#5248035)
listen: there's a hell of a good universe next door; let's go.