News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by moultano on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:37AM (#5234406)
Are slower speeds more efficient overall though, such that driving off the highway could make up for the energy lost to braking? With combustion engines I had always read that speeds around ~55 are at the crossover point where increasing wind resistance wins out over increasing engine efficiency, but I'm wondering if the math works out differently for electric cars?
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by ScottBurson on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:05AM (#5234461)
I think the peak is actually closer to 45 for most gasoline-driven cars. It depends on aerodynamics, though. For a big SUV it might be 35. I suppose it could be as high as 55 for a small, highly aerodynamic car.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by Someone on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:47AM (#5234624)
Aerodynamics and engine/drive train design.

Aerodynamically, the slower you drive, the more efficient you drive. The exact curve will depend on air pressure, amount of moisture in the air, etc.

For the engine, it is more complicated. You will want to keep its temperature and rpm at ideal levels. rpm and the gearing in the drive train determine what speed(s) that corresponds to (I guess drive train losses will depend a bit on the gearing, too, but that effect should be minimal)

For the two combined, this gets really complicated. Do you drive at the engine-optimal 45 or does the gain due to lower speed offset the loss in engine efficiency at 44? If 44 is more efficient now, will it stay that when it starts to rain? When you enter a different road surface? When your tires heat up and tire pressure increases slightly? When you have a window open?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles#Spe... shows how convoluted this can get.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by sliverstorm on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:00AM (#5234452)
The answer to your first question would seem to be a clear "yes":

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymodel/2012_Toyota_Prius.sht...

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by moultano on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:02AM (#5234456)
So all these journalists are practically correct, just not being precise about the mechanism. Off highway driving is more efficient, and it is more efficient (relative to a conventional car) due to regenerative breaking. They really should mention that it's more efficient relative to highway driving due to wind resistance.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by uvdiv on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:25AM (#5234590)
Yes, efficiency is a monotonic function of speed here (Model S). No crossover point.

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

(the graph)

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by tbjohns on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:05AM (#5234649)
I'm not sure. The y-axis on this graph is just the rate of power consumption. It doesn't do much for you to use minimal energy while traveling 0 mph.

Efficiency, in terms on miles/gallon, is always a trade-off between traveling fast enough that the overhead of running the vehicle is less significant but slow enough that wind resistance doesn't dominate. There's a sweet spot in there.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by uvdiv on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:19AM (#5234675)
The y-axis has units of [energy]/[distance], I think I'm interpreting it correctly? It seems to take everything into account in there.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by tbjohns on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:26AM (#5234696)
Yeah, I'm definitely confused. I don't understand how a car traveling 0 mph can have a finite value on that graph if the y-axis is [energy]/[distance]. I was hoping the units were [Watts][hours]/[minutes] or something to make everything better.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by uvdiv on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:37AM (#5234723)
I found they have another graph with the same units (written "Wh/mile", so that's unambigious). But it has a different shape, with a minimum at 20-25 mph...

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-efficiency-and-range

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by lutusp on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:56AM (#5234764)
That graph shows a maximum efficiency at around 22 MPH (for the 85 kWh battery), which makes perfect sense -- any faster and air resistance becomes a factor. Any slower and energy uses apart from propulsion begin to eat away at efficiency -- the computer, lights, air conditioning, heat, and so forth.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by tbjohns on Sunday February 17, 2013 @05:11AM (#5234799)
Much better. Thank you!
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by lutusp on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:51AM (#5234755)
> Yeah, I'm definitely confused. I don't understand how a car traveling 0 mph can have a finite value on that graph if the y-axis is [energy]/[distance].

The car expends energy just sitting at zero MPH -- the computer and lights, air conditioning and heating, things like that. So the graph is correct -- there is an energy expenditure to "go" zero miles per hour.

> I was hoping the units were [Watts][hours]/[minutes] or something to make everything better.

When the speed is zero, it stops mattering which units it's expressed in. :)

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by sergiosgc on Sunday February 17, 2013 @08:50AM (#5235176)
When speed is zero, distance is zero and energy/distance is infinite. Hence the OP questioning how could the graph present a finite value at that point.

Personally, I'd wager they followed the old scientific adage: "If you wish your function to be linear, sample two and only two points".

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by lutusp on Sunday February 17, 2013 @11:48AM (#5235708)
> When speed is zero, distance is zero and energy/distance is infinite.

1. Not energy/distance, but energy/speed.

2. Notwithstanding the cart's labeling ("Wh/mi"), its values aren't predicated on a division of energy by speed. "Wh/mi" doesn't literally mean mean "watt-hours divided by miles per hour", it means "the relationship between watt-hours and vehicle miles per hour".

> Personally, I'd wager they followed the old scientific adage: "If you wish your function to be linear, sample two and only two points".

Yes, except the chart isn't linear. Just for fun, here's a polynomial function that matches the chart's results reasonably well:

    f(x) = 0.03165008148658699 * x^2
         + 0.2559872636164877 * x
         + 106.19966024840329
Here's the resulting chart:

http://i.imgur.com/rLmaN90.png

So ... no division by zero. BTW I worked this up with the help of Sage, my current favorite, free math tool:

http://www.sagemath.org/

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by epochwolf on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:50AM (#5234433)
I can definitely say that my gas-powered SUV got 19mpg at 55mph for long distance. (Several hours on a rural highway in Wisconsin, using cruise control) It normally gets between 12 and 16 mpg driving around highway and city.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by baddox on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:31AM (#5234498)
The comparison is unfair unless you take into account the amount of braking done when driving slowly.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by seanalltogether on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:46AM (#5234422)
The slowest speed in the highest gear will give you the most bang for your buck. I'm not sure what kind of gearing the tesla has though since electric motors are very different beasts to standard combustion engines.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by moultano on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:47AM (#5234425)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Transmission

It's a fixed gear, so this is actually plausible.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by karolist on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:30AM (#5234707)
In internal combustion engines with manual transmission be sure not to overdo that, high gear and very low RPMs are bad for the engine/transmission due to high load and minimal oil lubrication, it's also not efficient on fuel, there were local magazine tests done, but I don't have references now sorry.

On an automatic transmission the transmission control module will figure out the gear for you at given conditions (won't let you get too low in the same gear) and what you say will be true.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by rdl on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:47AM (#5234426)
Yes, slower speeds are substantially more efficient. It's obviously not linear all the way to zero, but if there's no parasitic load from heat/ac/etc., I think 15-20mph would be more efficient than 55.