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Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by potatolicious on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:30AM (#5234395)
Imagine if we listened to the unruly mob here and elsewhere that were calling for the NYT/Broder's head on a stick.

I recall one very long-winded rant here on HN where a commenter described Broder as having an axe to grind, a shyster, and concluded his comment with "Fuck the NYT. Fuck Broder."

All of this, in the grand scheme of the automotive industry, are small ripples. Tesla will survive this, and electric sales will proceed more or less unimpeded.

The real takeaway here is keeping your cool and turning off the "mob outrage" circuit in your brain. The drummed up pitchfork-wielding mob was, in the end, a more sobering spectacle than any electric car issue.

I must sound like a broken record by now. It seems every month some one-sided account will splash onto HN's front page, stir up a hornet's nest of indignation, resulting in long, angry rants and calls for heads to roll. Inevitably a more balanced picture emerges - but the usual suspects will be back the next time someone writes a blog post manipulating their outrage.

Whenever a blog post is so utterly absurd and ridiculous that it demands unfettered and unrestrained anger, there is a strong chance you're being played.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by jacques_chester on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:34AM (#5234503)
There is a psychological label which is useful here: "Naïve Realism"[0].

Basically, everybody assumes that they are correct and that all fair rational people would draw the same conclusions as them given the same information.

When that doesn't happen, it can't be because the person is wrong; their interlocutor must be wrong. If the interlocutor continues to deny that they're wrong, they must be intellectually or morally defective.

That's what's happening here: people are assuming that since Broder doesn't agree with them, he must be deliberately deceitful. You can search any Tesla thread on the net and find the word "liar" or "lies".

Personally I think that Broder made some factual errors but that the big picture -- the battery ran flat in spite of the advice given -- is what matters. Maybe there's an RTFM problem here, maybe there isn't. I don't really care at this point because I happen to know that all new technologies ever have had embarrassing teething problems. When Musk's rockets blow up nobody seems to blame the journalists.

Musk overreacted because it's his baby and because surely anyone who disagrees with the wonderfulness of Tesla must, by the reasoning of Naïve Realism, be intellectually and morally defective.

Sprinkle in the way that humans love to form themselves into tribes, the "hostile media effect" and attitude polarisation and basically we're just hearing the same tunes that are hummed about Microsoft / Google / Obama / Bush / Rails / node.js / whatever.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_(psychology)

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by MartinCron on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:33AM (#5234607)
I was afraid to read yet another depressing shouting match about the Tesla/NYT debacle. Instead I find your comment, which I actually learned something valuable and insightful from.

Thank you for keeping HN great. I am in your debt.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by jacques_chester on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:40AM (#5234618)
Here, let me ruin that fuzzy feeling for you with a filename meme:

ohstopityou.jpg

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by cmccabe on Sunday February 17, 2013 @04:07AM (#5234655)
If Broder made factual errors, then Musk was right to call him on it. It's really as simple as that. Stop fudging and hemming and hawing about psychology and take responsibility.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by jrockway on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:49AM (#5234431)
I'm getting kind of tired of Elon Musk. Last month his crusade was reaming Boeing for their 787 battery problems. This month, someone wrote a bad review of his car (which turned out to be largely factual). Both times, he's on Twitter to talk about himself to anyone who will listen (which is a lot of people, for some reason).

I'm getting a tub of popcorn so I can be adequately prepared for his next crusade. I'm sure that this time it will paint him in a positive light...

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by sambe on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:47AM (#5234623)
I don't think 'largely factual' is largely factual. The difference between this review and the NYT one is night and day. Omissions, misrepresentation and tone matter - especially in journalism.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by jrockway on Sunday February 17, 2013 @06:10AM (#5234888)
The question here is whether or not you should be an expert to review a car: the author of the Times article did seem confused about some aspects of the car that would not be confusing to an experienced user. Making matters worse were the weather conditions that are extremely unforgiving to an electric car.

So while I wouldn't call it a perfect review, the points it made were relevant. You can't expect people to change cabin temperature settings to be uncomfortable, drive 45mph on the freeway, not drive when it's cold out, and to know the nuances of the car's range estimator. (If the range display says "0 miles", it's reasonable to assume that the battery is dead.)

Remember: the car mostly worked fine, which is a huge coup for electric cars. The article emphasizes the negatives, but the negatives are all things that can be fixed -- many with a simple software upgrade. So on that note, I don't think the review was particularly bad, and I certainly don't think the Times was compensated to make the car look bad, as Musk accuses.

(The article is also a good human factors and UI case study. When customer service and an electronic read-out disagree, one implicitly trusts the read-out more. It happens to airline pilots, too.)

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by InclinedPlane on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:54AM (#5234441)
The difference is that this article seems to be an accurate account of events whereas Broder's was at best sloppy journalism and more likely outright journalistic malpractice (an attempt to juice up a story to conform to a preconceived plot, little better than tabloid journalism).

No real-world fault of the Tesla justifies a reporter trying to bend the facts or going out of the way to manufacture a story. Broder clearly set out to drain the Tesla and get it on a tow truck, and he tried his damnedest to make that happen.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by lukeman on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:34AM (#5234504)
> more likely outright journalistic malpractice

That is a heavy charge and the evidence just doesn't support throwing it around so haphazardly. Musk's jumping to that conclusion did this entire discussion a disservice.

Remember, Musk stated as fact that Broder "drove around in circles" for 0.6 miles trying to run the batteries out. His casual accusation on just that point alone makes it hard to take the rest of his analysis (of his company-provided data) without a grain of salt.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by kjeldsendk on Sunday February 17, 2013 @07:14AM (#5235002)
The journalist that did the "original" review was not able to charge his car to 100% I bet that when he charges everything else he understands how it works. It's just not good enough to write a review based on wrong assumptions, especially if you already have a history of not "liking" ev's.

Imagine getting up in the morning, you check your phone, 25% ohh well i am not going to talk a lot to day so says my crystal ball. How many would do that? The NY journalist did his first drive in the Tesla S, and decided to base his drive on his experience, which was zero. Normal people, and other reviewers knew better, better charge to the max when i am actually testing the limits of the car. Not the limits of the reviewers knowledge.

If he had done as he should he would still have been able to write all the negative parts, the drop over night the limits because of the cold etc. it might have been a worthwhile article, like this one.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by albedoa on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:24AM (#5234589)
Remember, Musk stated as fact that Broder "drove around in circles" for 0.6 miles trying to run the batteries out. His casual accusation on just that point alone makes it hard to take the rest of his analysis (of his company-provided data) without a grain of salt.

I'm posting these without commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3fO_OHpyYw

http://twitter.com/TeslaRoadTrip/status/302958514245087233

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by uvdiv on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:36AM (#5234613)
That backs up Broder completely! Look how inconspicious those chargers are. He said he couldn't find them because they were unlit at night, and this video lends that enormous credibility.

Broder: While Mr. Musk has accused me of doing this to drain the battery, I was in fact driving around the Milford service plaza on Interstate 95, in the dark, trying to find the unlighted and poorly marked Tesla Supercharger.

That someone found the charger faster than him is neither here nor there (it's irrelevant to the review he wrote). His story stands, and Musk's accusations look increasingly like complete libel.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by Hates_ on Sunday February 17, 2013 @06:49AM (#5234954)
The video is of someone driving directly to it. The driver ignores the first right in favour of the second then takes an immediate left and right to where the the charger is.

The video makes it seem as if the charger is easy to find, but only if you know where it is already. I can't see how anyone who has never visited that station before would be able to make the same bee-line for the charger without circling the parking lot at least once.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by lukeman on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:38AM (#5234615)
Since you posted those without commentary it's not clear what I'm supposed to take from that video of someone who was able to find the charger right away.

Again, accusing a journalist of maliciously fabricating anything is a huge deal. It is not something that is taken lightly, and if there's is an inkling of truth to it the folks at the NYT will deal with it and we will know about it.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by albedoa on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:47AM (#5234622)
Since you posted those without commentary it's not clear what I'm supposed to take from that video of someone who was able to find the charger right away.

Well good, I posted them without commentary for that reason specifically. The goal was to allow you to guide your own thinking.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by taligent on Sunday February 17, 2013 @05:22AM (#5234823)
They were incredibly hard to see and I can easily see myself driving in circles to find them.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by codex on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:45AM (#5234524)
I wouldn't be surprised if Musk were sued for libel on this point. Were he a journalist, I suppose what he had done could be called journalistic malpractice.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by brudgers on Sunday February 17, 2013 @08:37AM (#5235143)
Broder's review was good journalism because it accurately portrayed the limitations of the Tesla S. Owners expecting to use it in ways similar to a hybrid or relying on Tesla's claims are likely to find themselves with a flatlined battery.

Journalism is not science.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by vor_ on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:45AM (#5234421)
I was surprised at the number of people casually accusing Broder of a conspiracy. Usually, it's the big company representative who gets the vitriol and the journalist is the underdog good guy, but for some reason, much of the reaction was opposite from the expected.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by ubernostrum on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:49AM (#5234432)
It was completely expected. Elon Musk is basically a cult figure for a lot of wannabe "entrepreneurs", so criticism of him or his company is taken very personally and responded to very harshly.

(lest you doubt this, go dig up some of the Boeing 787 threads and see what people were saying about him there -- the level of outright worship of him in the HN comments was more than a little bit scary)

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by niggler on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:48AM (#5234428)
Elon Musk is idolized by many people here, to a great extent because of Tesla, and when they see Musk make accusations they fall in line. It's more Musk-worshipping than anti-NYT sentiment.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by homosaur on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:50AM (#5234434)
That's because Elon Musk is some sort of superhero genius to the many of the types that lurk here. The Jason Calicanises of the world have all but declared this guy automobile Jesus.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by gabipurcaru on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:53AM (#5234438)
I'm not surprised. Don't know if this happens on a global scale, but here in Romania there's a trend of journalists and other media people starting to abuse their power like Broder (supposedly?) did, so for me (not sure about others), a journalist having a strong opinion quickly triggers a bullshit bell.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by CyberDroiD on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:55AM (#5234442)
There was no mob. Just some angry posts on the internet. Please realize most people don't care about random internet comments, or take them seriously. Just something to argue about when we're focused on a story, it's no big deal.

The outrage seemed normal: Broder and Consumer Reports seem to think that leaving the car unplugged overnight is normal or should ever be done. Or they combine 2 days+1 overnight unplugged, and call that a day, knowing that the cold overnight storage sapped the battery.

So either they are acting stupid, or don't really know how to test battery-powered vehicles. Sure, you don't have to follow instructions, but if you don't, you will have problems, no matter what excuse you have about 'testing something'.

If Broder can't remember what happened, farting around for details, he should have been a professional and videotaped at intervals so he could check the facts.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by potatolicious on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:07AM (#5234463)
> "Just something to argue about when we're focused on a story, it's no big deal."

It's a big deal when it labels someone as a liar and a fraudster. It's a big deal when tens of thousands of knee-jerk readers are calling for someone's immediate firing. It's a big deal when someone's entire career is threatened by a bunch of people "not taking things seriously" on the internet.

Not taking things seriously is the problem. People in internet-mob-outrage-mode are flippant, quick to judge, and unreasoned, believing that just because it's a bunch of electrons that there are no consequences.

Hell, this situation in specific is lighter than it could be. On Reddit we've seen in the past vigilantes who turned internet-angry-comments into real-life threats against lives, we've even seen one case where someone committed suicide after being hounded by thousands of "random internet comments" that are (according to you) "no big deal" - the accusation was molestation, btw.

Accusations of fraud are Serious Business(tm) for a journalist - there are real consequences for real people when that is tossed around. Just because you don't take your own words seriously doesn't mean other people don't.

Yours is the worst kind of defense - akin to a bully saying "gosh, I was just horsin' around" when called on the awful things that have been coming out of his mouth.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by codex on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:33AM (#5234500)
Sometimes you have to leave a Tesla unplugged overnight: on a ski trip, in a cold airport parking lot, when traveling and a charger is unavailable, etc.

In addition, the Tesla can lose range even when not parked overnight; it can simply be driven when it is very cold outside.

You can "instruct" people not to do these things, just like Steve Jobs "instructed" people not to hold their iPhones "like that", but you will be ignored.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by dalke on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:52AM (#5234631)
Where do you get that CR thinks "that leaving the car unplugged overnight is normal"? The linked-to text says:

> Anyhow, after a seven-hour overnight park (unplugged) and temperatures dropping below freezing, the "rated" range dropped to 65 miles. (Because we're tracking energy poured into the Tesla at our track, I resisted the temptation to top off at home, like a typical owner would.)

That reads to me like CR says that charging at night is the expected normal.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by rorrr on Sunday February 17, 2013 @01:54AM (#5234440)
The issue wasn't with the battery having less capacity when cold. The issue was with Broder's lies.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by Kylekramer on Sunday February 17, 2013 @02:13AM (#5234470)
Pretty much every "lie" Broder has been accused of making can easily be chalked up to the imperfect nature of human memory. His article has problems and certainly could have done with a bit more accuracy especially given that Musk/Tesla were known to be proactive about reviewers' truthfulness, but I am not comfortable characterizing any of it as a "lie". I'd love to hear any concrete example of him lying though.
Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by waterlesscloud on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:34AM (#5234609)
He gave precise numbers that were incorrect, often by a significant margin. He claimed these were from his notes.

Rather than an error of memory, I think it's far, far more likely he just made them up to create an illusion of accuracy that he simply did not do the work to record.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by kybernetikos on Sunday February 17, 2013 @06:53AM (#5234958)
You're talking about how long he charged for?

You're prepared to take Musk's interpretation of his logs (which we know were wrong about whether the car would move or not - the flat bed operator corroborates Broder) over Broders notes.

I'm familiar enough with logs telling you things different to what you expected to not think it's all that cut and dried. In fact, our QAs use stop watches and keep notes, and we trust those over what the software thinks is happening for certain kinds of issues.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by taligent on Sunday February 17, 2013 @05:24AM (#5234827)
> Rather than an error of memory, I think it's far, far more likely he just made them up

And it's impossible to tell either way. So clearly the over the top attitude of Musk was unwarranted.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by etherael on Sunday February 17, 2013 @03:06AM (#5234565)
"I cannot account for the discrepancy, nor for a later stretch in Connecticut where I recall driving about 45 m.p.h., but it may be the result of the car being delivered with 19-inch wheels and all-season tires, not the specified 21-inch wheels and summer tires."

Sure he can.

Re:Winter chills limit range of the Tesla Model S electric car by vacri on Sunday February 17, 2013 @06:36AM (#5234930)
If you look at Musk's graphs where the caption says "At no point did broder drive at 45mph" with an arrow pointing to a 50mph segment, the immediately previous (yet short) segment was at 45 mph. There are a few other places where Musk uses quite a bit of poetic license in interpreting the logs, too. I can't say whether or not Broder's notes would have corresponded to this particular segment, but there was indeed a point where he was travelling at 45mph.