News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by pg on Sunday March 15, 2009 @06:33PM (#517341)
I'd have been the target market for something like this, and I wouldn't have done it. I would have hated to have debt hanging over me. Equity funding is better than debt for high risk ventures. But I doubt one could legally buy a share of someone's future earnings.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by jhancock on Sunday March 15, 2009 @08:13PM (#517461)
I certainly hope it couldn't be legal.

The _only_ way this idea meets my standards is if the loan is invested in a corporate entity which enables the recipient to fail and walk away from the debt (and assets, of course).

Let me state this as clearly as possible for anyone that thinks this is a good idea: "excessive usury" is pure evil. Being able to walk away from failure and start again is the secret sauce that makes the American economy the envy of the world.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by moe on Sunday March 15, 2009 @08:50PM (#517516)
Amen.

Part of my motivation to get an investor was precisely to offload that financial risk to someone else. I'm already putting in at least 2 years of my life, including a lot of blood and sweat. If I fail then the last thing I'd want is to spend another X years getting rid of that debt...

Also I'm truly baffled at your statement of:

even an entrepreneur who has failed to get rich by the end of the four year can resort to taking a job at a big company. One year of that will pay off most of the loan, and will allow him to take a separate loan from the bank to cover the rest.

Excuse me?

After the 4th year I'd owe you roughly $120000. Most of us mere mortals would probably need closer to 7-8 years to pay that back.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by bokonist on Monday March 16, 2009 @03:39AM (#517886)
Why should personal debt contracts be legal but not equity contracts? Equity contracts are actually more progressive - you don't have to pay if you're not making anything, and those who strike it rich cover the costs of those who make less. I actually think we should fund the education system through personal student equity (rather than taxes and student loans). If a school fails to teach students to read, it will lose out when the kids cannot earn as much later in life.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by shader on Monday March 16, 2009 @12:29PM (#518359)
Certainly excessive usury is wrong, but being able to walk away from debts causes it's own problems. Because of the ability for people to just walk away from debt, they acquire more of it without the attention of paying it off. This can cause lenders to be more wary of loaning money, as well as waste resources when that person spends the money on a house or other item they don't need and can't pay for.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by gojomo on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:11PM (#517379)
I doubt one could legally buy a share of someone's future earnings

This idea comes up from time to time and someday might catch on. Here's some recent discussion:

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/june-06-08/popping-the-...

http://blog.gocollege.com/2008/11/30/paying-for-college-radi...

...and the company mentioned in the second piece...

http://www.lumni.net/

No idea if they're legit.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by sachinag on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:13PM (#517381)
You actually can legally buy a share of someone's future earnings - it's the basis behind the Bowie bonds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_Bonds

There was also a minor league player that was selling shares in himself (although I think he did so in blatant violation of the '33 Act).

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by Alex3917 on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:46PM (#517412)
Bowie bonds are based on an asset that has already been created, not a person's future output.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by cool-RR on Sunday March 15, 2009 @06:51PM (#517358)
I understand that debt can be distressful, and thus might even make the entrepreneur less productive. But having a side job is distressful too.

If I had to choose between having debt, and working side jobs like I do now, I would choose the debt. I understand that you would have chosen the side job. I guess the question is, are there enough people who would have chosen the debt?

As for why I would choose the debt: I know at >99% that I could pay it. Therefore it will hardly distress me. Even if my life would turn out to be a total failure I could still get some coding job at a big company, take a separate loan from the bank, and pay it all off in a few years. It would suck, but for a worst case scenario it's not that bad.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by nostrademons on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:24PM (#517395)
You know you can get credit cards, right? If you're willing to pay 20% interest, it's not hard to find 4-5 companies willing to give you cards. (Well, perhaps not in this economy, but as of 6 months ago...)

That's the problem I see with this idea: as soon as you start taking debt instead of equity, your competition changes. And there're lots of people already willing to give you money at 20% interest, even if your qualifications aren't stellar. Besides credit cards, you could just go to Prosper.com.

BTW, I'd be far, far more worried about taking on $100k of debt than you seem to be. Companies fail for all sorts of reasons, and while I won't exactly say that they're beyond the control of founders (mine failed do to my own stupidity), they are often beyond the ability of founders to predict when they begin their venture. And while I was lucky enough to get a job at Google afterwards, it's important to point out that the first few firms to offer me jobs weren't all that great, and it was only because I had cash in the bank that I could afford to wait them out until BigCo Coding Job came through.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by vaksel on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:47PM (#517414)
precisely, I got a $30K credit card at 0% apr for a year and a half not so long ago. And I get other offers like that all the time.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by jey on Sunday March 15, 2009 @06:55PM (#517363)
"But having a side job is distressful too."

If people aren't willing to give you cash for equity, it's probably a bad idea for a company and you should switch projects. (It's unlikely that you're the one in 100,000 entrepreneur who has a brilliant idea others just can't see the brilliance of.) Otherwise I don't think there's much of a good argument for turning down equity financing for a high-risk venture.

It just makes a lot of sense economically: your biggest asset as a poor entrepreneur is your time and effort, and you need some capital to make your project happen. Investors have a lot of capital, but only a finite amount of time/effort to do things with it. So it's a fair trade: you put in time/effort, and the investor puts in money. If you just finance everything with debt, you end up having to incur both downsides of losing time and money -- and the downside of losing $100k in capital is a lot worse for you than for the rich investor. If the project fails, you'll have to spend time/effort to repay the $100k instead of just moving on to the next project.

Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by cool-RR on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:16PM (#517382)
jey, I think we sort of lost each other. I have nothing against equity financing.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by jey on Sunday March 15, 2009 @08:20PM (#517468)
Sorry, my main point got lost in my comment: I can't see the argument in favor of debt financing for a startup.
Re:Ask HN: "Y Combinator for people?" by cool-RR on Sunday March 15, 2009 @08:26PM (#517478)
I didn't suggest debt financing for a start-up. I suggest debt for funding the entrepreneur's living expenses.

I agree that if the entrepreneur actually starts a start-up proper, he would do best by financing it using equity. But most entrepreneurish activity is not a start-up proper - Just little things you try and that sometimes evolve into big projects. It's hard to sell equity out of those.