News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by ryanwaggoner on Saturday March 14, 2009 @01:21PM (#515978)
I love HN and the crowd here. It's by far the absolute best online community I've ever been a part of.

That being said, the arrogance displayed in many of the comments on this thread and others like it is one of the things I dislike most here. There's this pervasive attitude that hackers > businesspeople, and while it's ridiculous for a business guy to think he can hire a programmer (or be of much value to one), you never see articles about how hackers are helpless without business people or how a hacker would have no idea how to hire a marketing or sales guy (and shouldn't even try).

Maybe I'm overreacting because I'm one of those who straddle the line, but this kind of arrogance serves no one.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by mixmax on Saturday March 14, 2009 @02:05PM (#516034)
I come from a business background as well, and I wholeheartedly agree with your point. It's just as hard for hackers to find good businesspeople as it is for businesspeople to find good hackers.

Yes, many businesspeople hire bad hackers resulting in a bad product. But equally many hackers hire bad bussinesspeople and never get their product out the door. None of these scenarios are good.

The keypoint here is that to start a successful business you need many components, and if you fail at just one of them you're finished - A startup is never stronger than its weakest link.

The startups that achieve success acknowledge what their strengths are, are keenly aware of their weaknesses and try diligently to hire people that can fill these out. So the great hacker should not frown at businesspeople if he wants to do a succesful startup, he should acknowledge the fact that he has shortcomings, as everybody does, and try to hire people to fill out these shortcomings. The weakest point with many hackers (in my personal experience) is that they don't like political games, don't like cold-calling people, and don't think marketing should drive your sales. Exactly the things a good businessperson excels at.

So please, get along and you will make more succesful companies.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by tvon on Saturday March 14, 2009 @04:32PM (#516150)
First, I think the article does a good job of summing up not just a good programming hire, but any good employee. (I'm about 85/15 tech/business). Not all good programmers fit the profile, but it reduces your chances of a bad hire if you follow it.

That said, there are no pointers or how-tos that will turn you into a qualified judge of a profession completely unrelated to your own and I don't at all think it's arrogant for "hackers" (or anyone else) to be somewhat offended at that idea.

Your statement reads as if to say "how arrogant of you to think a businessperson can't become a qualified judge of your work by reading a few pointers", which is itself a very arrogant statement. I don't think that's necessarily what you meant, but I think you are mistaking a little bit of offense and some defensiveness for arrogance and reacting to that misperception.

This isn't "hackers > " anyone, either, I certainly don't think I could read a few pointers and suddenly have the ability to pick a well qualified architect, urban planner or a mechanic (I know zero about cars). I could see a house and say "hey, you must be a good architect" but if I had to hire one early in their career I'd ideally go to someone in their field that I trust (as suggested in many comments here).

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by vaksel on Saturday March 14, 2009 @04:39PM (#516152)
The difference is that a good hacker can get the actual product out the door without bringing anyone else on board. A good businessman can't do anything without outside help.

BTW I say this as a business guy. Granted I know how to code a little. But I still need someone to code the site up, And don't bother finding a cofounder at that stage, for that early alpha, you need to rely on freelancers to get the job done, because finding a tech cofounder is next to impossible.

Why? Because every programmer gets approached once a week with "hey, I heard you know interwebz, help me code up my site and lets make billions!".

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by Alex3917 on Sunday March 15, 2009 @07:32AM (#516766)
"A good businessman can't do anything without outside help."

Not true. The vast majority of reasonably to highly profitable businesses either don't have a product at all, or else have a product that involves no new technology. Businesses that require a hacker or an engineer are by far the exception. To the extent that the philosophy of Hacker News is wrong, it's mostly because it ignores that fact that for 98% of the people reading this site it would be more profitable for them to open a Korean grocery than to do a website.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by mrtron on Saturday March 14, 2009 @02:13PM (#516045)
I don't see much arrogance in this thread, or hackers > business folks.

What I do see, and agree with, is good business would have a ridiculously hard time finding a great programmer. I don't even think good programmers could consistently identify the great hackers with the ability to propel a startup forward. Also finding that individual is only half the battle - putting their expertise to work optimally for a startup is no easy task.

I have seen articles on how hackers cannot identify good business/marketing/sales people. I recall one article explaining quite well how a smart programmer with a good business concept was sunk by his bad selection in a sales guy.

We can just generalize this argument to 'Identifying people great at a task is difficult, even more so if you come from a disjoint background'. Perhaps adding in 'A subset of those great people will be able to leverage that skill at your startup'.

Let me summarize with an analogy.

Finding a great ship is an enormous challenge - especially for someone who is neither a ship-builder or sailer. But owning a great ship does not guarantee faster travel; the winds and currents must be harnessed.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by swombat on Saturday March 14, 2009 @01:27PM (#515983)
Worth pointing out that the article proposes the opposite: that business guys can learn how to hire hackers, thanks to that list of indicators I pulled together.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by ryanwaggoner on Saturday March 14, 2009 @04:29PM (#516145)
Agreed, and my comment wasn't aimed at the article so much as the comments here about the article.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by swombat on Saturday March 14, 2009 @04:57PM (#516169)
Couldn't agree more, then.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by jwilliams on Saturday March 14, 2009 @02:49PM (#516067)
A lot of it (maybe) just relates to being able to judge people.

You're best off hiring someone you can work effectively with, rather than the best programmer in the world (as for judging someone you can work with long term, that's another problem).

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by mixmax on Saturday March 14, 2009 @03:23PM (#516091)
And interestingly, being able to judge people is one of the most important traits of a business person. When you boil it down, picking and motivating people is the major part of a good CEO's job.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by GavinB on Saturday March 14, 2009 @02:17PM (#516047)
Really it's a tautology.

"Non-technical people can't judge technical people."

Once someone learns enough to judge technical skills, they are declared technical and so don't disprove the statement.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by radu_floricica on Saturday March 14, 2009 @09:18PM (#516434)
Tried hiring sales people. Failed. Gained much humility and respect for good sales people and those who hire them.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by ojbyrne on Saturday March 14, 2009 @11:44PM (#516551)
Part of my business school experience consisted of listening to decrepit, senile, old professors making fun of engineers who tried to start businesses but lacked basic business skills. This kind of arrogance, at the very least, serves me.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by yason on Sunday March 15, 2009 @09:39AM (#516817)
But "hackers > business people" does indeed hold when it comes to hacking.

We're not trying to tell the business people that we could do their jobs better than they. That would be arrogance.

Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by zhyder on Saturday March 14, 2009 @07:42PM (#516331)
Please please post (or link to) info about how to recognize a good business guy if you're a hacker. I'm certainly struggling with that problem right now.
Re:How do you recognise good programmers if you’re a busines... by notaddicted on Sunday March 15, 2009 @03:30AM (#516698)