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A comment on A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java updates.

Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by chrisacky on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @09:56AM (#5097356)
Just to tell my experiences on this, I was forced to install the crapware last week. There was no way for me to uncheck or opt out of the checkbox.

I have a machines which I connect to that do not have any mouse connected. I have no problem in navigating systems with a keyboard and can run through installers probably quicker than most people with a mouse can, but when this dialog popped up for me, I was stumped for about 10 minutes. I employed every shortcut in my keyboard-shortcut arsenal and fell short.

I genuinely felt like this was not just some programming mistake (because the "Next" control was already highlighted waiting for me to hit Enter). It is a dark pattern that was purposefully introduced to their installer to make it impossible for users like me to opt-out of their installer.

A consequence of their deception was that they did get a dozen installs from me, but my dislike for Oracle increased tenfold, and in a quiet-protest, I'll make damned sure that I suggest any alternative to an Oracle product when I have reasonable alternatives (Without cutting off my nose to spite my face).

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by halviti on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:27AM (#5097490)
I employed every shortcut in my keyboard-shortcut arsenal and fell short.

One good one to remember is ALT+Left Shift+NumLock

Then you can use your keypad as a mouse. / and - toggle which mouse button 5 is.

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by jakub_g on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:46AM (#5097606)
Thanks for the shortcut!

For those of you struggling to enable it under WinXP, you may need to choose "Settings" first in the popup dialog and tick (with the spacebar) "Use MouseKeys".

If you happened to have multiple keyboards installed (e.g. running English Windows + your local kbd settings), LEFT ALT + SHIFT additionally switches between kbd layouts as a bonus, so be sure to disable this shortcut in Control Panel > Regional and Language Options > Languages tab > click Details > click Key Settings.

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by kibwen on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:31AM (#5097512)
How incredibly obscure! Thanks a ton for this.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by error54 on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @11:45AM (#5097958)
Also, pressing shift 5 times is an easy way to enable sticky keys in Windows.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by smcl on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @11:57AM (#5098060)
I have accidentally enabled this a million times and I've no idea what it does other than messing up my keyboard.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by FredFredrickson on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:11PM (#5098582)
It's an accessibility feature. If you don't have the dexterity to hold keys down yourself, you can enable sticky keys and (if I remember correctly) it will make certain keys act as toggles so you don't have to do finger-yoga to hit certain key combinations.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by akandiah on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @06:17PM (#5100280)
For anyone interested in the keyboard layout for mouse keys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_keys#Layout
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by jackbauer on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:39PM (#5098779)
many thanks
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @11:28AM (#5097856)
Monetizing software is a hard problem. Oracle is just trying to do good in a scummy space. Most users choose to install Java, so obviously they want it.

The above post was satire in reference to Y Combinator staff's reaction to this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by Florin_Andrei on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @06:32PM (#5100342)
> Oracle is just trying to do good

You mean they're trying to do well.

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by Breakthrough on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @02:04PM (#5098912)
I just formatted & had to reinstall Java today, out of curiousity I used the offline installer instead... No toolbar bundled with it, didn't even give me the option to install it.

http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by dsl on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @03:53PM (#5099501)
Don't put all the blame on Oracle. Follow the money:

   Oracle distributes Ask Toolbar
   Ask Toolbar drives searches to Ask.com
   Ask.com displays ads from its parent, IAC
   IAC is the largest third-party distributor of Google ads
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by corresation on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:07AM (#5097413)
It absolutely wasn't a mistake. Most legitimate software makes the descriptive text for a checkbox (the label) a trigger for the checkbox. The Ask Toolbar installer option, however, disables this, forcing you to specifically target the checkbox itself.

It is incredibly scummy, and worse it actually encourages Oracle to create insecure software -- at least in the short term -- because each fix is another spin of the wheel.

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by _b8r0 on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:31AM (#5097508)
That's weird, I thought Oracle have been making insecure software for decades and this was just business as usual for them.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by hnriot on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:08PM (#5098564)
clearly, you haven't been paying attention.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by drzaiusapelord on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:06PM (#5098550)
How secure are these toolbars? It seems like end users are getting reamed twice. Once by just using java and again by increasing their vulnerability profile with toolbars.
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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by logic on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @12:52PM (#5098452)
Disabled to make automation (corporate installations) difficult, perhaps?

I find it mind-boggling that people actually put up with (or defend) user-unfriendly behavior like this.

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by skymt on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:10PM (#5098578)
Oracle explicitly supports automated corporate deployment, albeit in a roundabout way.

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/deploy...

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by FredFredrickson on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @01:14PM (#5098606)
The only reason why anyone would defend these practices is that presumably, if the company did not monetize their software in this way, the software couldn't continue to be developed.

In Oracle's case, this seems absurd. The money they make from toolbar installations couldn't possibly be very high, could it?

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Re:A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software wi... by talmand on Tuesday January 22, 2013 @10:33AM (#5097524)
There are examples of legitimate software failing in this aspect as well. Not to suggest that Oracle does not do this on purpose for nefarious reasons or that other software is being scummy somehow. I don't work at Oracle so I can't say if it's intentional or just part of the problem that's more common then you think.
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