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Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by threethirtytwo on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:11PM (#50477192)
You missed the point. I’m not saying I support dsa but you are arguing against the weakest version of the reasoning behind why companies use dsa. It’s used as an iq test. IQ is highly correlated with many things associated with intelligence yet even though we don’t take iq tests on a daily basis it still correlates.

The argument was dsa functions like an iq test. It’s not relevant to the job (in fact it’s harder than the job, far harder) such that if you do well on it companies can be confident you can do well.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by noduerme on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:54PM (#50477528)
Is DSA knowledge really pointless or just a stand-in for an IQ test?

I've been engineering systems for 25 years. On a macro level, most of my time is spent considering the right tooling and stack for a job, balancing budget and time constraints and efficiency against how things may need to scale in the future. On a micro level, in the data model and in the code itself, choosing the best structures for a task is important for maintainability and overall coherence.

In my experience with LLMs, I often need to guide them toward choosing the right ways to model data on the code and database level. LLMs seem to prefer json blobs of unstructured data, naming conventions that drift over time, argument structure patterns that change from one piece of code to another. The net result is a lot of tables and code that an LLM needs to read back through, find all the linkages, and recommit to its window before any debugging can take place. It makes human debugging very difficult if, for example, an LLM decides to just store all the userdata in some json column and then decides to add some kind of stateful preferences to that, and other state to something in memory, and then parse the memory falling back to the database state. I've seen a ton of things like this where weird ways of handling state kinda work, until they don't, and it's extremely difficult to figure out what is taking precedence when or where a thread race is coming from.

All this is to say that DSA knowledge may be even more important when LLMs are writing most of the code, because an unguided LLM will write stuff that can practically only be maintained by an LLM, and make design decisions that don't cohere or scale. If that's not really a problem, and you're certain that the code you're investing in writing will never need human intervention, then I guess it doesn't matter. But with a large enough system designed that way, the boundaries and edges of poor DSA choices aren't going to be apparent until either something breaks or you need to grow.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by cweld510 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:13PM (#50477707)
DSA is plenty relevant to the job. There’s lots of professional programming that’s heavy on DSA.
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by threethirtytwo on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:43PM (#50477965)
It’s very rare. And often people end up using libraries. All pointless now with LLMs
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by ralfd on Friday November 13, 2026 @04:48PM (#50490346)
Plus: IQ tests are illegal for hiring, but leetcode questions are not. That is why it is used as a substitute for an iq test
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by tptacek on Friday November 13, 2026 @05:58PM (#50491346)
IQ tests are not illegal for hiring. They're presumptively legal for virtually all white-collar hiring.
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by 9rx on Friday November 13, 2026 @09:59PM (#50493305)
There is no written law prohibiting IQ tests, but they are assumed to be legally indefensible and the colloquial term for legally indefensible is, you guessed it: "illegal".
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by tptacek on Friday November 13, 2026 @10:30PM (#50493526)
No, it's not. Huge companies that are enormous targets for employment attorneys routinely do IQ testing. The companies that deliver and proctor general cognitive tests for employment have logo crawls, like any other SAAS company. This is just a big Internet myth.

The reason more companies don't IQ test is that it's an ineffective tool for candidate screening. We all intuitively get that as software developers: imagine hiring off an IQ test rather than just having someone write code.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by 9rx on Friday November 13, 2026 @10:43PM (#50493613)
It's not what? Your train of thought seems to have gotten cut off. The huge company story is fun too, but it also seems to have gotten cut off not going anywhere. You're right that the "internet myth" considers it to be legally indefensible, and thus, colloquially, illegal. But we already covered that earlier, so whatever it was you were trying to add on top of that also appears to have gotten cut off as well. Was this message delivered via Outlook?

Regardless, you vastly overestimate how much effort is put into hiring. The vast majority of companies would never study the effectiveness of IQ tests to know if they are useful or not. If they had a gut feeling that an IQ test would be helpful they would try it on that basis, except they wouldn't try it because they've read online that IQ test use is illegal; meaning that it is considered to be legally indefensible.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by tptacek on Saturday November 14, 2026 @12:10AM (#50494184)
It's not legally indefensible. It's not illegal in any sense. It's not proscribed. It's presumptively fine in white-collar employment. Large companies screen candidates with general cognitive tests. Well-established companies administer those tests and brag about their large clients. None of this is a secret.

So it's difficult to see how to square what was previously said on this thread, about IQ testing in employment being "illegal" or "legally indefensible". Those are trivially falsifiable claims. Every HR department in the world knows that.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by 9rx on Saturday November 14, 2026 @10:17AM (#50497708)
It would appear my message was also arrived malformed. What a terrible week for tech!

What I said, quoting from earlier, was "considered to be legally indefensible". Whether or not it is legally defensible is for the courts to decide, but it is clear that it is considered to be. Unfortunately your full comment didn't arrive, but what we did get was "This is just a big Internet myth" which appears to have you echoing that it is considered to be legally indefensible. You cannot have a "myth" without belief.

Where the law is abundantly clear (YMMV, law is jurisdictional) is that hiring criterion must be related to the job. It asserts that selection tests must be reasonable, bona fide, and tailored to actual job duties. That does not strictly prohibit IQ tests, but there are effectively zero jobs where an IQ test would be seen as reasonable, bona fide, and tailored to the actual job. Whatever exception you can find is just that: an exception.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by tptacek on Saturday November 14, 2026 @11:03AM (#50498098)
It doesn't prohibit IQ testing at all and your argument fails empirically because large companies do in fact broadly employ IQ testing. None of the rest of your comment makes sense in light of that fact.
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by 9rx on Saturday November 14, 2026 @11:30AM (#50498315)
It looks like your message got cut off again. Allstate is well known for not using IQ tests, rather their proprietary JEPS assessment, so be aware that whatever followed to connect IQ tests and Allstate is missing.

Moreover, on JEPS, Allstate does not use JEPS in my jurisdiction. There is no public knowledge as to why, but legal compliance would be a reasonable explanation. Use of JEPS may even be illegal.

Perhaps you had a different company in mind?

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by tptacek on Saturday November 14, 2026 @11:33AM (#50498341)
The opposite thing is true of Allstate; they're a banner Wonderlic client. You can't just bluff your way through this.
Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by 9rx on Saturday November 14, 2026 @01:31PM (#50499484)
It is true that Allstate is a Wonderlic client, but Wonderlic does not use IQ tests, so the connection is not clear. Did your message get truncated again?

Could it be that you are using "IQ test" as some catchall term for any type of cognitive test? You could define it that way in a vacuum, but that is not how it is being used here. The initial comment was clear about how it was being used. In context, "IQ test" was being used to refer to IQ tests that are academically recognized as IQ tests (WAIS, Stanford–Binet, etc.). HR department pet assessments do not fall under that.

Re:Jane Street – Our software engineering interviews are cha... by janalsncm on Friday November 13, 2026 @05:55PM (#50491309)
The problem is that because people believe that Leetcode is a good test of job performance, it implies that the best leetcoders will be the best software engineers.

So to the extent that we software engineers were complicit in that myth, we can’t blame management for believing that AI can replace human software engineers now that AI is the best leetcoder.