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Re:We need more goat sacrifices by GrantMoyer on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @11:18AM (#50455142)
Isn't trying a plausible sociological intervention then measuring its effectiveness a win regardless of how effective it ended up being? Either way, we know more about what's likely to work for future interventions. It's the scientific method.

These interventions target very complex systems. It's not unexpected that we need to try a bunch of things that don't work before we find something that does, to the extent that most of the things we try are ineffective, right?

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by fellowniusmonk on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @11:53AM (#50455571)
No man, don't you know if you can't guarantee success or if you ever swing and miss you should just give up. If any single one of your plans fail, seppuku and self immolation are the only option. Successes must be ignored and not even mentioned.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by doctoboggan on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:26PM (#50455965)
I read the whole article, and in the beginning part the only thing I felt the author wanting to change was my own mind. He is drilling in the idea that common sense interventions more often than not do not work. (maybe even almost always don't work).

His proposed change at the end is that we must always guess and check (emphasis on check) for now, and we may eventually get into a "Psychohistory" level of understanding in the future, but we are far from it now.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by pdonis on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:44PM (#50456172)
> Isn't trying a plausible sociological intervention then measuring its effectiveness a win regardless of how effective it ended up being?

Only if the value of whatever smidgen of knowledge you gain (assuming you do actually gain any) outweighs the much-more-than-smidgen cost of the intervention to all the people who weren't helped, and in a significant number of cases were harmed, by it.

As you can see, I don't think whatever benefits are gained actually do outweigh the costs. Which means that no, continuing to try such interventions is not a win.

The lesson we should be learning from all this is to stop trying to do so many things top down. That whenever you see some kind of large scale statistic that you think is not what it should be, the last thing you should do is concoct a large scale intervention to try to change it. Still less should you sacrifice a poor goat who did nothing to deserve it, just to underscore the point that your intervention won't work.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by tjwebbnorfolk on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:50PM (#50456248)
The goal of a scientific experiment can't be to "help" people. What you're describing is a political experiment.

The goal of science can only be to learn whether it helps people, who it helps, who it hurts, etc. Then it can be implemented, or not, depending on the results.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by _heimdall on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:54PM (#50456300)
Duplicating a top level comment I just posted, but this all assumes that people will generally respond the same way over time. I'd be surprised if culture, societal norms, life experiences, etc didn't make a meaningful difference and those absolutely change over time.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by tjwebbnorfolk on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:56PM (#50456340)
yea, social science researchers are well aware of longitudinal studies that track populations over time...
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by _heimdall on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @07:22PM (#50461077)
I assume you meant this condescending given the "..." at the end.

Longitudinal studies tracking populations over time does not imply that sociological intervention experiments, especially political ones, will be reliably recreated over time.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by tjwebbnorfolk on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @11:28PM (#50463086)
man ellipses are just catnip for pedants, eh? thanks for refuting absolutely nothing
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by _heimdall on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:52PM (#50456268)
That has to carry with it the assumption that the response to similar interventions is long lasting over time. I'm shooting from the hip here, but I'd expect culture, life experiences, etc to play a role in how interventions would play out.

If my hunch were to price right, anything we'd learn there would have a short half live and may not hold out past, say, a generation or two.

I can say anecdotally that my grandparents would respond differently to many situations and interventions than I would. They grew up during the Great Depression and he flew in the war, those two events alone very much impacted how they viewed things for the rest of their life.

Looking at those only a generation behind me and even they seem to respond very differently than I'd expect those in my generation would.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by Retric on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:34PM (#50457466)
Repeating a successful intervention 20 times before failure means you can dramatically boost the success to failure rate.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by _heimdall on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @07:20PM (#50461064)
In this context that would mean running the same intervention at scale 30 times without each run impacting the next. Maybe that is possible, but it seems unlikely to me especially if the intervention has a half life on the order of a single generation as life experience and social norms change.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by Retric on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @08:32PM (#50461833)
The initial run is usually a relatively small scale. What works in NYC may not work in LA but it’s likely to work in many locations.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by _heimdall on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @08:57PM (#50462056)
The question I was raising was locality though, it was temporal. Such experiments take time to conduct, and running a couple dozen or more times takes even more time.

The question I was raising was whether said results would be useful beyond a decade or two into the future, not across different cities today.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by wyager on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @01:14PM (#50456543)
> Isn't trying a plausible sociological intervention then measuring its effectiveness a win regardless of how effective it ended up being

No, paying $3B for information of dubious value and which was pretty obvious ahead of time is not a win.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by titanomachy on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @01:32PM (#50456794)
I think so. But a big part of the article's complaint is that we usually don't even bother checking.

The reason the article resonated with me is because policies and interventions are often sold as "this thing is self-evidently great, and if you oppose it you're an idiot", rather than "this seems promising, so let's give it a try and scale it up if it works well". When I look at proposed measures at my local government level (for example) almost all of the supporting literature focuses on why the problem is important, rather than why the proposed interventions are likely to succeed. Being "effective" as a legislator means enacting policy, so if you want to be effective you try to keep the conversation on the first part.

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by debo_ on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @04:28PM (#50458944)
By definition, a politician isn't trying be right; they are trying to be popular.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by somenameforme on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @11:37PM (#50463119)
Yip.. Ship of State. [1]

It's quite interesting to appreciate that these issues were observed, and written about, some 2400 years ago. Times when ostensibly everything would have been practically alien. Yet it emphasizes that the thing that's really changing is not humanity, so much as it is technology. We're still trying, and failing, to deal with the exact same issues as we were thousands of years ago.

And mind you that's just the first time it was written down. I wouldn't doubt that these observations and issues long predate even Plato. Because I think one thing that's become clear is that he wasn't necessarily unimaginably brilliant so much as he was simply capable of objectively seeing the patterns in society and recording them. Though perhaps that is some form of brilliance in its own right.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_State

Re:We need more goat sacrifices by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:22PM (#50458149)
I agree, but we should be more systematic about it. Instead of one intervention, we should be asking what are our ten best ideas for interventions and try all of them on a small scale in different places.
Re:We need more goat sacrifices by zdragnar on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:23PM (#50458159)
I think most sociological interventions don't follow the scientific method because you need a control group. You can't just use random people you haven't helped elsewhere as a control, because you need to identify all of the external variables that you can so as to properly assess the effectiveness of your method (ruling out changes external to your intervention).

There aren't too many people comfortable with intentionally letting others suffer for the sake of the scientific method, and those who do have a hard time getting past ethics review boards.

Instead we have this reality where we throw money at problems and claim credit whenever something good happens, and claim we did good work when nothign changes.