News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:14AM (#50425930)
> and can just charge whatever you want for your magic beans.

'Winner take all' doesn't mean convincing others to buy your product. If others have something to buy your product with, you've not taken all, fundamentally.

'Winner take all' means having the most powerful army. The assumption is that once AI crosses a certain threshold then there won't be anything the rest of us can do to stop the machine of whomever gets there first, so they will truly be able to take all. This is why the AI labs sometimes talk about the risk of human destruction.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by Jeff_Brown on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:31AM (#50426991)
The army interpretation exists, and might sadly be relevant here, but it's not the only one. Google, for instance, won a nonviolent winner-take-all competition for search.
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:35AM (#50427048)
You're right that Google has most definitely been helped by having what has been considered the strongest army (the US army) backing them.

But I am not sure you are right that it is strong enough to secure all. I search daily, but cannot remember the last time I used Google. And I'm not alone. Google's stock price recently took a nosedive because investors have grown quite worried about the competition. Without an army stopping them, there will always be someone else ready to try to outdo you.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by marmarama on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:18PM (#50428484)
Google has class leading AI in virtually every category, owns a chunk of Anthropic, and is a landlord to both Anthropic and OpenAI. Plus Google's search ad business is still doing well, even if you don't personally use it.

Google shares dipped because AI shares dipped, not because their core business at risk. Google is in a _very_ strong position to capitalize on AI. Better than almost any other Big Tech company.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:42PM (#50428793)
Google is doing very well, in large part thanks to it having a strong army behind it, but that's not anywhere close to being the same as having taken all. They have not done that. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not even if you try to constrain "all" to mean search.
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by m000 on Monday November 09, 2026 @11:38AM (#50427955)
Different setup. IIRC, Google had fundamentally better tech than its competitors and was also the first to figure out search monetization.

With AI, it looks to me like competition is much tighter, with no company having fundamentally superior technology or monetization plan. So a winner-take-all scenario is much less likely.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by citrin_ru on Monday November 09, 2026 @11:20AM (#50427668)
If Anthropic or OpenAI will take all using the most powerful army why they would give anything back to their investors? If that's a possibility than investing into AI companies is just gifting money to whoever will control this army.
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @11:35AM (#50427915)
Anthropic/OpenAI and the investors are the same thing. A company name is just a title for the people who own it.

Maybe you mean that you could see the employees of those companies staging a coup to seize the army for themselves? That's certainly possible. They'd be in a good position to do so. Predicting the future is impossible, but if you want to be on the "right side" of that future army, owning its foundation today is still a reasonable bet.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by citrin_ru on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:24PM (#50428564)
[delayed]
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:31PM (#50428675)
They mightn't have direct say, but the army would still be beholden to them (being on the "right side") under the current legal understanding. Of course, when the AI army takes over what we know today isn't apt to hold much water. A coup, as we established, is very plausible. However, as you cannot predict the future it isn't unreasonable to try to place the bet given what you do know. That's all you can really do. If you end up on the losing side in the end you'd also still be on that side if you did act at all, so why not take the chance if you believe one of these companies will eventually take all?
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by bloppe on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:43PM (#50428805)
> If others have something to buy your product with, you've not taken all, fundamentally.

Are you saying that winner-take-all markets are incompatible with capitalism? I'm confused

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by win311fwg on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:49PM (#50428880)
What suggests an incompatibility? Allowing private ownership of capital can absolutely support a winner-take-all situation. One entity can own all the capital just fine, technically speaking.

In reality the people would likely revolt by no longer recognizing private ownership of capital if that were to occur, but technically they don't have to. If they truly believe in capitalism they can continue to uphold the right for that private entity to own all the capital.

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by bloppe on Monday November 09, 2026 @12:58PM (#50429012)
I take it you have a pretty specific perspective on capitalism, but most would say it can't really exist without a free market.
Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by 9rx on Monday November 09, 2026 @01:12PM (#50429238)
What is certain is that that we've never seen a free market in recorded human history. By the time the idea was invented we already had power structures in place that would never stand for a free market. Of course, the concept also has a number of unsolved practical problems which would prevent a free market from emerging in the real world even if everything else perfectly fell into place. Once markets were invented they were incorporated alongside existing systems, leaving a mixed economy. An interesting thought experiment it is, but bold to think that private ownership of capital is dependent on that thought experiment. Especially given that most people seen here seem to believe that they actually can privately own capital despite the lack of a free market.

For the sake of discussion, if we entertain your thought, that means capitalism also doesn't exist beyond a thought experiment, which questions why it was brought into this discussion? Whether or not a winner-take-all-future is compatible with that thought experiment with no actual grounding really doesn't matter, does it?

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by bloppe on Monday November 09, 2026 @09:36PM (#50435396)
You can certainly redefine concepts to the point that they stop making sense!

Still, if you've ever actually dealt with a monopoly, you must surely understand the difference between that and an actual competitive market right?

Re:I'm Not Convinced the AI Bubble Exists by 9rx on Tuesday November 10, 2026 @03:20AM (#50437504)
> You can certainly redefine concepts to the point that they stop making sense!

Yeah, I know. We see you do that below.

> You should really try working in cloud.

I do. Yet I don't need to negotiate with a police force to protect it, so clearly there isn't a free market. But even if you want to pervert what a free market is by cherrypicking some things you like from it while ignoring everything else, I still don't see how you would ever consider the cloud to be free. It is marred by things like copyright and patents that make free exchange unrealistic.

> Our customers churn all the time because they have meaningful choice, and our margins reflect that

Is this humorous story intended to be an arbitrary tangent or something related to the rest of the discussion? The best interpretation I can come up with is that you are trying to use this story to explain that your cloud activities exist in a market, which is no doubt true, but you haven't given anything to suggest it is within a free market. Even non-free markets need to have choice. You cannot have a market at all, neither free nor non-free, if there is no choice. But there is more to markets than actors being able to choose. People having choice was present in societies even before the idea of a market was invented.