That doesn’t make any sense.
> The ones in place were broken by Trump.
No they aren’t.
> Ask a russian. But the rest of us will have to deal with it and whatever Ukraine does has far less effect on the world economy than what trump and putin have done and continue to do.
Russia should stop its war. It won’t until it’s forced (Europe should start using its military immediately to take down Russia). Spain and Italy should immediately deploy forces on the ground in Ukraine. What are they waiting for?
There isn’t anything to “ask a Russian” because if there was an answer to be had they wouldn’t have started the war in the first place.
> Where do you get this 'across the world' thing from?
Energy markets are global?
> You mean: "I've made up my mind
Incorrect. Unless you mean I’ve made up my mind that Europe should immediately go to war with Russia and stop the whole thing. If it is unwilling to do that we have to figure things out in a different way.
> Give Ukraine the means to defend itself, no strings attached, no stupid games and no witholding arms already bought and paid for. Recognize that russia is the aggressor and ensure that they realize that if they stay on this path it can only go down for them.
This doesn’t end the war. You haven’t been following it very closely if you think just giving some weapons to Ukraine somehow “solves the war”.
To you. But it makes sense to me and to many other people besides: If the United States can not be trusted as an ally then that means that weapons systems bought from the United States diminish in value because their operational readiness can not be counted on.
> > The ones in place were broken by Trump.
> No they aren’t.
Well sorry, but yes, they were. To wit:
- Russia is currently under sanctions both by the EU and by the US, who signed their last sanctions package less than a month ago - Within days of signing that sanctions package Trump broke the law by agreeing to buy oil from russia.
You can't really argue with the facts here unless you are doing this wilfully.
> There isn’t anything to “ask a Russian” because if there was an answer to be had they wouldn’t have started the war in the first place.
I would not count on that. Russia is the aggressor here, not Ukraine and only Russia can stop this war. Not the USA, note Europe, definitely not Ukraine. Until you recognize that simple fact the answers to 'why' are to be found in Russia. As for the rest of the effects of recent activity on the global economy: the American/Israeli/Iranian war is a much larger factor there. It is disingenuous to blame Ukraine for what their actions against Russia do to the world economy.
> Energy markets are global?
They are, but they are local markets first and there is this thing called proportionality. You are focusing on something that has 1% or thereabouts of the impact internationally that the US made disaster in the strait of Hormuz has. If you have beef with someone about this you will find them in the Whitehouse or in some brothel in Florida.
> Unless you mean I’ve made up my mind that Europe should immediately go to war with Russia and stop the whole thing.
Oh that's your solution. Yes, sure, that will definitely end well, escalate to deescalate? Where have I heard that before?
> This doesn’t end the war. You haven’t been following it very closely if you think just giving some weapons to Ukraine somehow “solves the war”.
Well, there is a difference between 'some' and 'lots' and there is a difference between promising to do so and actually doing it. Ukraine has done extremely well so far given that in the beginning of this war most people thought they would roll over. So this is not the time to start withdrawing capabilities from them. If you believe it is then you are a useful tool in Putin's pocket.
Not trusting the US means either you are playing in to Putin’s hands, or it means we need to immediately leave NATO and pack up all of our military equipment deployed all over Europe because it’s impossible to have a military stationed in Europe if you don’t trust it.
> Well sorry, but yes, they were. To wit: - Russia is currently under sanctions both by the EU and by the US, who signed their last sanctions package less than a month ago - Within days of signing that sanctions package Trump broke the law by agreeing to buy oil from russia. You can't really argue with the facts here unless you are doing this wilfully.
Sure I can. You can just say as I might, that stability of global energy markets is more important than sanctioning Russian diesel fuel. Maybe by continuing to sanction this fuel we cause other wars to erupt, or something even worse. While tiny, insignificant countries in Europe are focused on Ukraine, the United States has to worry about the entire planet. Trade-offs and choices have to be made. Europe for example still allows Russian tourists.
> I would not count on that. Russia is the aggressor here, not Ukraine and only Russia can stop this war.
And Russia won’t stop the war so if Europe can’t stop the war and neither can Ukraine then there isn’t anything to do or anyone to call.
> They are
Thanks. Conversation was over here. My point was made.
> Oh that's your solution. Yes, sure, that will definitely end well, escalate to deescalate? Where have I heard that before?
So Europe isn’t willing to fight and thinks that sanctions will just magically stop Russia? It might, and I hope it does, but until then I’m not sure what else to tell you. Want to end the war? Join the military or your EU member state or volunteer to fight in Ukraine. Everything else is bullshit. You’re sounding a lot like a Russian right now.
> Well, there is a difference between 'some' and 'lots' and there is a difference between promising to do so and actually doing it. Ukraine has done extremely well so far given that in the beginning of this war most people thought they would roll over. So this is not the time to start withdrawing capabilities from them. If you believe it is then you are a useful tool in Putin's pocket.
You’re explaining things I already know. No need. Ukraine exists today still in no small part bexause of the United States and United Kingdom. A large reason why Ukraine did so well is because American and British militaries were running 24/7 airlift operations to bring weapons to Ukraine while Germany was sending helmets and Spain, France, Portugal, and others were claiming American warmongering. You’re welcome, Europe.
How about instead of accusing anyone who even vaguely disagrees with you, you take a step back and realize you yourself are playing into Putin’s hands by trying to discredit American help? Yea? Stop accusing people of being pro-Russia or whatever.
Consistency.
> Europeans deploy their military and attack Russia?
Well, given that half our gear was US bought that doesn't even look like an option at this point.
> More sanctions?
The ones in place were broken by Trump.
> If Ukraine destroys more refineries then what effect does that have on the global economy?
Ask a russian. But the rest of us will have to deal with it and whatever Ukraine does has far less effect on the world economy than what trump and putin have done and continue to do.
> Is it more important to destroy the refineries and cause disruptions to fuel supplies across the world or is more important to not let things get too bad?
Where do you get this 'across the world' thing from?
> Everyone pretends there are easy answers here and I don’t think there are, nor do I think a lack of nuance and honest discussion does anyone any good.
You mean: "I've made up my mind and even though the evidence is obvious I'm going to persist in my way of thinking". It is so transparent. All of the points you make above you could have pulled right off the russian set of talking points.
> I’m interested in hearing ideas but I’m not sure what more we can do that will “end the war”.
Give Ukraine the means to defend itself, no strings attached, no stupid games and no witholding arms already bought and paid for. Recognize that russia is the aggressor and ensure that they realize that if they stay on this path it can only go down for them.