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Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by unalone on Sunday March 01, 2009 @07:26PM (#499499)
Other people have responded in other ways, so I won't respond regarding her philosophy. I'll respond in a purer way that nobody else has: she writes bad prose. Her sentences are ugly, overlong, and lack concise flow. So by the definition of literature as the beauties of language, her work is imperfect and, in the case of Atlas Shrugged, actively bad.

I daresay I've read Atlas Shrugged more times than you have. Furthermore, though I could be wrong, I would argue that I've memorized more of the central concepts and analyzed them more thoroughly than you have. Judging from how you've written on this thread, you're still operating from a very shallow interpretation of her works, which is antithetical to her own ideas.

The central flaw of Atlas Shrugged is that it denies external possibility. Given her own hypothetical world, it follows impressive logic. However, it ignores the fact that people are not so easily judged. A former girlfriend of mine was an Objectivist and simultaneously an irrationalist. She believed in man as an end unto himself, but also that everything was subjective, there was no absolute truth - and she was a believing Christian on the side. The problem with Ayn Rand's writing is that the two are not necessarily incompatible. You can believe in what she writes and still think that things are subjective, and that truth is difficult to find, and while she would argue that that is a corruption of her ideas, and it is, Atlas Shrugged does not define itself well enough.

Part of the problem is the nature of language, which is subjective. If I tell you that I'm nice, it could mean that I am "kind" or that I am "accurate". If I call my friend a "motherfucker" it means something different to him than it does to Oedipus. Similar, "objectivity" does not have an objective interpretation. Neither does "selfishness". People will never agree over these definitions. Objectivists don't agree over them in their entirety. By that nature, yes, everything is subjective.

But that's beside the point. To give a quick summary of other flaws, I'd say that her writing is preachy, her characters are one-sided, there's no observation of physical stimuli (which is to say, the nature of bad things happening to good people on grounds other than human interference, which leads to questions of philosophy that she neatly ignores), and her book is about three hundred pages too long, drags in the opening, in the latter half of the second part, and John Galt's speech is wholly unnecessary as part of the work. Feel free to respond.

Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by ojbyrne on Sunday March 01, 2009 @09:30PM (#499577)
Just happening to be reading the book at the time. There's so many pathetic pieces of prose. "He lighted his cigarette."

Just to chime in on all the other stuff, Francisco inherited all his wealth, and spent his life quite literally destroying it (rather than give some of it up to the "looters"). I can't think of a better allegory for crony capitalism.

Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by unalone on Monday March 02, 2009 @01:20AM (#499763)
To defend Rand a little - I do like her quite a lot - Francisco's idea is that by doing so he's eliminating the "looters" from society. It's entirely fantasy, but it's very fun fantasy.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by ojbyrne on Monday March 02, 2009 @07:52AM (#500024)
My point is that he inherited his wealth. And pissed it away. Objectively that's what happens.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by sethg on Monday March 02, 2009 @10:37AM (#500185)
Worse, he didn't just piss away his own wealth. By running D'Anconia Copper into the ground, he violated his fiduciary responsibility to the company's investors.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by Radix on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @12:47AM (#501100)
That is beside the point. He is protecting the wealth from the looters. He uses his family's fame to bring in looting investors to his mine in Mexico, then it is revealed that there isn't anything of value there. The investors were looters, so D'Anconia succeeds with his goal.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by sethg on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @11:42AM (#501585)
Are you saying that it's OK to violate a contract if the other party to the contract is a "looter"? Why not just avoid making contracts with "looters" in the first place? (D'Anconia, after all, could have simply cashed out all of his holdings and let his successors decide how to deal with the threat of nationalization.)
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by Radix on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @12:18PM (#501635)
Hmm, in general I agree that the proper action would be to simply not do buisness with those who cannot add value (the looters), but within the logic of the book it is clear that this is not an option. As someone has pointed out, it is a given that the looters are waiting till the mine is producing to nationalize it and the railroad to it.

D'Anconia has agreed with Galt to stop carrying the looters and so he plays the spoiled playboy. Sure, he has a certain duty, but that goes both ways, and if the investors are not adding value then what duty does he have to them other than to do as he pleases? They are trusting that they can make money off of him based on his family history, nothing else. That is, there agreement amounts to: "Go make money as you always have. We would like a share, but you do the work."

I agree with the comments of unalone and guiles. They point out what I don't like about the book, but I didn't see anything wrong with this subplot within the logic of the book.

Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by sethg on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @12:57PM (#501683)
The investors added value by providing D'Anconia with capital. Once D'Anconia accepts their money, his duty is to manage it in good faith. Whatever character flaws the investors have (e.g., excessive faith in D'Anconia's management skills) do not excuse him from his fiduciary duty. If he doesn't like owing a share of his profits to people who don't contribute any effort to the company, he is free to liquidate his own shares so he can start a privately-held enterprise.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by Ein2015 on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @11:11AM (#501537)
The company was going to be nationalized, essentially stolen from him, anyway. Thus, investors didn't matter in his decision to give the nation nothing in return for stealing his company.
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by sethg on Tuesday March 03, 2009 @11:47AM (#501592)
If I tear your wallet out of your pocket and set it on fire, I can't escape prosecution for theft by saying "there was this guy coming down the street who was going to mug us anyway, so you haven't really lost anything".
Re:"Francisco's Money Speech" by Ayn Rand by unalone on Monday March 02, 2009 @10:03AM (#500141)
Have you read through the book? Because that's discussed in the book. Rand explains the rationale behind that in the final leg of the novel.