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Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Thursday September 03, 2026 @07:01PM (#49558313)
I was under the impression that intermediate tokens (“chain of thought”) are _not_ a representation of a model’s logical path, with one study observing that you can replace intermediate tokens with single character chains and still get the increased precision…
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by gr_norm on Thursday September 03, 2026 @07:11PM (#49558416)
Link to this study?
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Thursday September 03, 2026 @07:16PM (#49558454)
[2404.15758] Let's Think Dot by Dot: Hidden Computation in Transformer Language Models

https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.15758

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by stymaar on Thursday September 03, 2026 @08:28PM (#49558979)
Also 2504.09762: Stop Anthropomorphizing Intermediate Tokens as Reasoning/Thinking Traces!

https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.09762

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Friday September 04, 2026 @07:10AM (#49563016)
Fascinating read thank you
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by comex on Thursday September 03, 2026 @09:52PM (#49559571)
The model they use in that paper is a toy model of an LLM that’s so different from an actual LLM that I doubt the results mean anything at all.

Specifically, they train a model from scratch. The model architecture is apparently based on Llama but the size is 34M parameters. Not 34B, 34M. This is a fraction of the size of GPT-2.

Luckily, they don’t use the model as a language model. It neither receives text, generates text, nor uses text to think. Instead the inputs are strings like “A01 B10 C73 D27”, and the only possible outputs are “True” and “False”. They are expecting the model to solve a specific math problem encoded by those numbers, and do nothing else. The chain of thought is also numbers, in the scenario that’s supposed to represent a real chain of thought (as opposed to the filler-token scenario and the no-CoT scenario). The numbers in question are manually trained into the model based on one possible algorithmic decomposition of the problem; the model does not learn to generate its own CoT.

Even with all those limitations, for their main problem (3SUM), they only show that filler tokens are better than no CoT at all. They don’t show how that compares to ‘real’ CoT, at least as far as I can see (admittedly I only skimmed). They do make this comparison for their easier problem (2SUM), but on that problem both filler token CoT and ‘real’ CoT are mostly saturated, so the results don’t mean much.

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by imtringued on Friday September 04, 2026 @02:32AM (#49561210)
>The model they use in that paper is a toy model of an LLM that’s so different from an actual LLM that I doubt the results mean anything at all.

Sorry, but it sounds like you aren't cut out for transformer based LLM research if you can't interpret the results.

Each layer in a transformer has its own KV cache that feeds from the previous layers output. Those internal layer activations are not subject to training loss directly. The model can spit out a dot but still perform additional computations within those layers.

The dot effectively prevents information from flowing from the final layer into the output, but all the intermediate layer activations are still available for future tokens. The limitation here is that information cannot be passed from the last layer to the first layer.

If a long running calculation needs to go through all layers and then be refined further, CoT becomes mandatory because CoT tokens are the only way to pass information up to the first layer, but since they are not as information dense as the internal activations, replacing them with a dot does not degrade performance as much as one would expect.

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by comex on Friday September 04, 2026 @03:52AM (#49561791)
I'm not even an LLM researcher. But I believe you're correct; I just don't think the paper provides any meaningful evidence on the subject. From the structure of the model we can tell that dots can do more computation than no CoT and less than full CoT. What we don't know is how much of the performance gap between no CoT and full CoT would be recovered by an LLM using dots. The paper answers that question for a tiny transformer, but it's so different from an LLM that extrapolating to LLM scale is purely speculative. In other words it doesn't give us more information then what we can already determine from the structure of the model.

For the record, the original claim was that "you can replace intermediate tokens with single character chains and still get the increased precision", which I read as saying you can get almost all of the benefit of CoT with dots, not just some unknown fraction of it. This claim is true for the paper, though probably only because the benchmark was saturated (and training difficulty was also higher, as they mention). But the claim is unlikely to be true for LLMs, if only because they presumably do sometimes need to perform "long running calculations", and they also have plenty of unsaturated benchmarks.

(The other part of the original claim, that CoT is "not a representation of a model’s logical path", is more complicated. It's clearly not guaranteed to match the model's logical path, as we have seen with other research into actual LLMs. But it does seem to be correlated with it, presumably more so for more complex / long-running tasks.)

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Friday September 04, 2026 @05:51AM (#49562476)
Scientific papers aren't popsci articles. Constraining the environment (like with the token choice) is a basic method to reduce confounding factors...

The "toy model" part is flat out wrong, the models they use have _exactly_ fundamental mechanics then chatGPT or claude, they are used all the time for this kind of research for a reason.

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by comex on Friday September 04, 2026 @04:39PM (#49569954)
> The "toy model" part is flat out wrong, the models they use have _exactly_ fundamental mechanics then chatGPT or claude, they are used all the time for this kind of research for a reason.

Tiny models are sometimes used out of necessity, but the results often don't hold up at scale, or in different scenarios.

If you train a tiny transformer to use a fraction of its capacity to perform an algorithm simple enough that you could design the transformer weights by hand, the results might generalize to natural-language reasoning, but they easily might just not.

So it is hard to generalize even to something like GPT-3. But once you get to a modern LLM, the nature of the chain of thought is also very different.

First of all, the CoT can be very long and encode reasoning with long chains of serial dependencies. Filler tokens don’t increase the limit on serial computation, particularly in the dots example where the output is a single token (as opposed to real language model which can somewhat substitute for missing CoT by reasoning within the answer itself).

Also, a modern LLM gains much of its reasoning capability in post-training, where it learns which CoT tokens to emit rather than just relying on pre-existing chains of thought in its training data. The post-training involves reinforcement learning where the grader ignores the CoT and only grades the final result. The only things tying the CoT to natural language are (1) the starting point (pre-training data) containing natural-language CoT, and (2) the CoT being produced using the same weights as the final output. On one hand this could potentially make the CoT less faithful to the model's reasoning, since nothing directly punishes the model for, say, coming up with its own private meanings for words within the CoT. But on the other hand, this incentivizes the model to make good use of the CoT. To the extent that the CoT is a "parallel construction" (i.e. a chain of reasoning that has to be coherent-looking but differs from how the model is actually coming up with the answer), coming up with this duplicate reasoning is both a waste of computation and a big opportunity cost. The model should learn to instead use the CoT tokens for information that will be useful to it later. But in practice models do keep producing readable CoT, suggesting that the CoT does reflect the real thinking process to a significant extent (probably more so after post-training than before).

The dots paper has no post-training, so it doesn’t encounter this dynamic at all.

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by markasoftware on Thursday September 03, 2026 @09:19PM (#49559336)
Yes dots increases precision, but not nearly the same increase in precision as having actual useful reasoning in the CoT
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Friday September 04, 2026 @05:55AM (#49562508)
Indeed, but the fact that it moves the needle at all is enough to be skeptical of the anthropomorphic interpretation of the intermediate tokens. It's waaaay too early into the discovery process to take anything for granted, even more when it's related to our very strong bias towards giving inanimate things human qualities.
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by thinking_cactus on Thursday September 03, 2026 @09:22PM (#49559358)
How can they do that? Does state propagate between each token output?

That is, I were under the impression LLMs were just f(context), so chain of thought was f(...f(f(f(initial)+initial)+f(initial)+initial), i.e. y_n+1 = f(y_n+f(y_n-1)), where y_n is the nth output and f() the transformer inference function. Do they carry state across?

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by anon291 on Thursday September 03, 2026 @10:37PM (#49559880)
I mean at every layer in a transformer, the attention mechanism does a massive state transfer between tokens.

In a recurrent transformer, instead of projecting from the latent space to token space after a fixed depth, you take the latent embeddings and then run them again through the transformer. This causes more time to think because there's more mixing. You can run that as many times as you want for more thinking before projecting the embeddings back to word space.

Personally I believe this is similar to how humans think. The brain is a fixed size yet if we think longer we seem to be able to do more than if we just react instantaneously. This is because the brain feeds the results of our musings back into itself for further thought.

Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by buppermint on Thursday September 03, 2026 @10:28PM (#49559811)
CoT is both correlated and causal of the model's real computations, it's just imperfect. If you manually add "Let's wrap it up" in the CoT during generation, most LLMs will actually wrap it up (this is a commonly used trick in local LLM circles to get long-winded LLMs to stop reasoning). This wouldn't work if CoT text didn't affect the actual internal model logic.
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Friday September 04, 2026 @05:52AM (#49562481)
Why does injecting random text increase the precision then?
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by anon291 on Thursday September 03, 2026 @10:34PM (#49559864)
The tokens inside the transformer are only projected into token space to train them. In reality they ought to be treated as their own thing. What's really gone on is you've trained the final projection to be sensible rather than trained the llm to think using words. This seems to escape a lot of people. You can throw random empty tokens into transformers to get them to think more. More tokens means more attention mixing which means a larger dimensional space in which to think essentially.
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by simianwords on Friday September 04, 2026 @02:10AM (#49561092)
How can you possibly believe this? If this were true, why do open weight models think in real English tokens and not arbitrary characters?
Re:How concerned should we be about Astra's recurrent archit... by khalic on Friday September 04, 2026 @05:49AM (#49562462)
I believe it because of scientific papers on the matter. It doesn't "think" that's the point, it's generating text that describes a thought process, it's related but not the same thing.