I didn't intend to dismiss you, that's why this whole thing struck me as odd. I said some things that I didn't recognize anymore when you repeated them, however re-reading my original post confirms they are still there. They just didn't come across somehow, and I'm entirely ready to accept responsibility for that (maybe it's because English is not my first language). It's just a topic where I didn't expect any bitter misunderstandings, that's why I'm so surprised. For what it's worth, I also made it abundantly clear in my posts above where the line between my opinion and scientific fact is - all the more frustrating you chose to attack me as if that line wasn't there. For what it's worth, I do know bioscience, but I also realize that arguments from authority don't mean much, that's why I don't like to preface posts with "I'm a [insert area of expertise here]". I never said anything amounting to "I'm an expert, trust me", instead I believe this is basic stuff that anybody can understand if they make an effort.

Having discussions with smart people who disagree with me is one of the reasons I enjoy HN so much. But it is no fun if key points are misunderstood, ignored, or repeated out of context. So I really wanted to find out why this was happening.

I won't repeat things I said earlier, but as a summary: I really don't think there can be any contention about the growth mechanism of bacteria. As a point of personal opinion, I have voiced doubts about the study and its methodology. I also expressed a personal theory on two major factors that make people fat, one of which I (somewhat regretfully) tied myself to.

> There are a lot of people who are either obese and have tried everything and can't lose weight or are thin and have tried everything and can't gain weight.

Those two are very different. There is absolutely no doubt that obesity comes from excess intake of energy. None. Some diseases cause the body to grow excess tissue or to store water excessively, but that's not obesity. Failing to gain weight, however, can be down to a lot of factors both behavioral and biochemical.

> But your opinion is "some people just eat too much", apparently with no real cause.

I did not say that or anything even resembling that.

> Equally, you are comfortable with "bacteria are everywhere -- if you eat too much you can grow them".

It's a simplified summary, but it's fair.

> In your view, the eating too much has to precede the bacterial overgrowth. Seems awfully convenient.

I don't think that's convenient for anybody. It's just the only way you can multiply microorganisms to any significant numbers.

> But people don't get AIDS or anything else because "well, germs are everywhere".

That one leaves me a little speechless. HIV is a virus, it doesn't have a metabolism of its own. It's a rogue piece of software that hijacks the human runtime, so to speak. That's an exceedingly bad example, but there are bacteria out there that would be much better suited for the point you are trying to make: Take MRSA for example, because it grows and lives off living human tissue. Contrast that to the enterobacteria we were talking about originally, they live off our waste products. So it's clear why, for example, E. cloacae is directly related to the food you eat, but MRSA is not. MRSA attacks the body and provokes an immune response, E.c. does not. That's also the reason why MRSA is something you contract, whereas E.c. is something which in all likelihood you already have. It's worth repeating that enterobacteria actually lend essential assistance to our digestive system.

> My only goal was to kill off the overgrowth of germs which were killing me.

Now I understand so much better where you're coming from. We could have saved a lot of time... Whatever works for you is fine, I didn't want to sabotage that - nor did I have any idea why my dry descriptions provoked such a visceral response, but now I see why.

> I really should know better by now, by my recollection was that you are a very reasonable member of the forum.

Well, I do think this exchange was worth pursuing in retrospect. I do try to be reasonable, though of course I often fail. I'll just have to try harder :)

I think one case where someone might object to your comments is the assertion that obesity is strictly a behavioral problem, in the form of overeating. While that may be strictly true by virtue of the conservation of matter and energy, the word "behavioral" can be interpreted as meaning "chosen," as in, "People are obese because they want to be obese." It may be helpful to note that there are many causes for behavior, including conscious effort, habit, addiction, autonomous instinct, reflex, and perhaps even lipopolysaccharide endotoxin.

Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply that behavior is the same as choice. It didn't occur to me that could even be an issue. It's a neutral term.

To people fighting a personal fight in the middle of the battlefield, neutral terms can become not so neutral very quickly :-).

I think there can be contention about the growth mechanism. Again, my main "proof" is I got better after being sentenced to death. Trying to talk about that gets me dismissed in the ugliest way possible. On HN, I was recently repeatedly accused of being mentally ill and hounded by someone claiming I was being irrational and overly emotional. I remain baffled that no one seemed to recognize his behavior as irrational and overly emotional. My only crime is telling a truth which people find so fantastical that they feel entitled to claim I made it up. I am at wits end as to how to carry on a rational discussion in the face of that. I am trying to figure out what I need to do to present my case more effectively. But I also frequently wish that I could, conveniently, just shut up about it and let other people keep dying, like they seem to prefer. I don't know how to do that. It is an option I often contemplate. But I seem to be equally unable to do that. One of those "sucks to be me" things.

I really don't wish to discuss this further in this thread. Again: Please have a good evening.

Again: none of those things are actually happening in this thread. I'm not disrespecting you, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I also don't think I'm being irrational. I do believe you didn't really read my entire posts though, but that is more a failure on my part than on yours.

Also, it's actually morning here in Europe. In the spirit of a new day: don't ever shut up, but do lighten up.

Cheers guys, loved reading your debate. Thank you both for contributing!

"Last year, I lost so much weight, so rapidly that total strangers began stopping me in public places and asking me how I did it."

How did strangers know that you'd lost weight?

I have lived without a car for several years, so I walked everywhere. Sometimes people would stop me in the grocery store or other place and say "I see you walking all the time. God, you've really lost weight!! What are you doing?" I also worked for an extremely large company. There were probably about 2000 people in the building where I worked. So people I did not know at all would stop me in the hallways at work and ask how on earth I was dropping so much weight, so fast.

I am tall with naturally curly hair and apparently striking features. It isn't terribly uncommon for people to notice me whom I never noticed. That sort of experience goes back at least to high school, where people recognize me and I have no clue who they are. (Edit: This is probably compounded by my crappy eyesight. I sometimes don't recognize people whom I do know until I am practically on top of them.)