> No, he is caring for his OWN interests in saying that. As does Warren Buffett. Sure, his narrow next year interests are to pay less taxes. But his long term interest is that he will not have to hire a private army to protect his every move because of social unrest. Nor that he will have to finance his own private hospital for his kids, because disease control in communal (non-profit and for-profit) hospitals is breaking down. Nor that he will have to fly in everyone he wants to meet because the road infrastructure is breaking down.
> What Bill Gates and Warren Buffett understand is that the US is falling behind, and they don't want that to happen. That IS in their interest.
Why do these discussions always reduce to "X's own interest" = maximising their bank account?
Gates might (and most likely does) care about generally making the world a better place, and so it is in his interest to suggest measures that ease the burden on low-income people.
(Note that this explanation avoids proposing that he is explicitly staving off worldwide societal collapse so that he and his family can live in peace without paying for private this and private that. It might have this as a side effect, but I find it extremely unlikely that this monetary calculation is what he is thinking.)
Are people who vote 'for their interests' (that is, for what you believe their interests are) but can't articulate why also stupid?
I'm curious about this non-stupid guy you posited, who can soundly reason about his vote 'against his interest' (that is, against what you believe his interest is) - is there any reason he can't make the same argument as you from his reverse perspective?
I'm wondering why you don't leave your subjective opinions about others' interests out of it, and just say 'people who can't soundly reason about their votes are stupid' - something relatively uncontroversial. Or is your sound reasoning somehow automatically superior to other people's sound reasoning?
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
It's not what I believe their interests are. It's what THEY claim their interests are. I'm sorry, but if you claim to vote to a party because "they believe in small government", despite the last 30 years of data showing that government & expenses grow under said party control much more than under the other party's control, then you are not smart.
The specific example I gave was of JtP, who was (for a short time) a hero and looked upon figure in a section of the population. His vote and declared interests (as declared by himself) do not align, and his reasoning is flawed. And unfortunately, that is extremely common.
> Are people who vote 'for their interests' (that is, for what you believe their interests are) but can't articulate why also stupid?
I don't know. Do you? I mean, you might be doing "the right thing" for the right reasons, in which case you are not stupid, and you might be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, in which case you are stupid (but lucky). I was discussing cases in which there is apparent evidence for improvement of outcome.
> is there any reason he can't make the same argument as you from his reverse perspective?
No, he can (and should) make the same arugment about me, making me non stupid but working against my interests from his perspective. Which is a base for discussion - he might convince me (or might not, or we might agree to disagree), and find some way to work together.
e.g. one might believe that government should backstop failing banks, and one might not. There might be evidence one way or the other, but probably not conclusive evidence. Either one of us may believe the other is working against his interest. And neither of us will really be wrong.
> and just say 'people who can't soundly reason about their votes are stupid' - something relatively uncontroversial.
That's actually what I was trying to say. I was just focusing about the thing that highlights a subset of those people: working against their own interests. NOT what I believe their interests are (that's what you assume, but never have I said that), but about what they declare their interests to be (I should have been more clear about that).
I'm sorry to be blunt, but people who find such a statement insulting should get off the internet. That said:
> Do we dismiss Bill Gates as being too dumb to care for his own interests when he says his tax rate should go up?
No, he is caring for his OWN interests in saying that. As does Warren Buffett. Sure, his narrow next year interests are to pay less taxes. But his long term interest is that he will not have to hire a private army to protect his every move because of social unrest. Nor that he will have to finance his own private hospital for his kids, because disease control in communal (non-profit and for-profit) hospitals is breaking down. Nor that he will have to fly in everyone he wants to meet because the road infrastructure is breaking down.
What Bill Gates and Warren Buffett understand is that the US is falling behind, and they don't want that to happen. That IS in their interest.
> Sometimes people feel differently than you. Even if it would be in their personal selfish interest to agree with you.
Yes, and I respect their right to do that, even if there is no logical way, selfish or communal, short term or long term, in which it serves any measurable interest of theirs. But I also reserve the right to call them stupid for it (for being unable to demonstrate to a mythical "objective observer" that their votes support their interests, that is. I won't call them stupid if they can soundly reason about it, even if I disagree with their reasoning)
And I repeat again: Gates and Buffett are talking their interest.
Joe the Plumber is stupid (reminder: he complained that although he is making $40,000 year NOW, he's going to buy his employer's business in the future, and make $200,000/year, and at that point Obama's tax plan to increase tax over $250,000/year would hurt him. His statements were logically incoherent, statistically improbable. And yet, he was sure that he had a solid case against the Obama tax plan of 2008. And so did hundreds of thousnads (perhaps millions) of others. These people are beyond help or hope. (To be clear: there are reasonable considerations against Obama's plan. JtP could not, however, elaborate any that were against his interests)