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Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by peteretep on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @02:56AM (#4875387)
The numbers are ... misleading ... and choosing NTLM hashes seems like bordering on misinformation.

Taking SHA-1 (which YOU MUST NOT USE for password hashing blah), it manages 63 billion a second. To try all the passwords for that in the alphanumeric space:

- 10 chars: 35 weeks

- 11 chars: 44 years

- 12 chars: 2,800 years

- 16 chars: 11 times the age of the sun

10 chars for bcrypt: 600,000 years...

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%2865**16+%2F+63+billio...

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by mrb on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @04:10AM (#4875529)
I don't think this is misinformation. You would be surprised at the number of IT people who have no clue how fast NTLM hashes can be brute-forced. Spreading this knowledge is good.

Ranting about NTLM, I am also shocked at how many people are unaware of the pass-the-hash vulnerability enabled by the mere possession of hashes, without having to brute-force them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkbBCR_vfRQ (disclaimer: I made this video and was a developer for Metasploit/Nexpose).

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by DanBC on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @04:23AM (#4875562)
> I don't think this is misinformation. You would be surprised at the number of IT people who have no clue how fast NTLM hashes can be brute-forced. Spreading this knowledge is good.

That's just depressing, considering how long this has been a problem.

Advice has been, for many years, to avoid using passwords 14 chars or less to force use of NTLMv2.

Here's a Microsoft document from 2004: (http://www.windowsecurity.com/articles/Protect-Weak-Authenti...)

> You would be surprised at the number of IT people who have no clue [...]

No, you're right. It's widespread lack of knowledge, and letting people know that some stuff is not secure, and other stuff is more secure if you have a complex passphrase, is important.

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by michaelt on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @04:47AM (#4875608)
LinkedIn used unsalted SHA-1, had their passwords leaked, and within a month 90-95% of leaked passwords were cracked[1].

Admittedly LinkedIn isn't a critical application calling for people's most secure passwords - but it's evident that only 5-10% of users use passwords that take more than 1 month to crack when hashed with SHA-1.

[1] http://securitynirvana.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/final-word-on-...

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by rmc on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @05:52AM (#4875741)
Admittedly LinkedIn isn't a critical application calling for people's most secure passwords

People re-use passwords. Often it's not access to the LinkedIn account that's the problem, but that that same password will give you access to their email account, after that, you have everything.

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by michaelt on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @07:22AM (#4875943)
Yes, you're right about that. I only included that proviso because I've seen people on HN report that, while they use a complicated, hard-to-remember password for important sites (gmail, paypal) they use weaker/easier to remember/reused passwords on less important sites (HN, reddit, facebook, linkedin).

Depending on how widespread this behaviour is, while 90-95% of linkedin passwords were easily cracked, that might not generalise to all sites.

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by Keyframe on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @08:08AM (#4876049)
I'm kind of rusty on algorithmic information theory (I'm an artist, heh)! Is there such a thing as (formalized) upper limit of what we could do as far as computing combinations go? I know of Kolmogorov complexity (vaguely), but what are the hard limits and challenges of just prodding through (faster and faster as tech goes forward) combinations until success? I plan on developing a story around that and make a movie out of it - so any help would be appreciated (you guys can contact me via email if you want).
Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by itry on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @09:20AM (#4876319)
"what are the hard limits and challenges of just prodding through (faster and faster as tech goes forward) combinations until success?"

According to current theory of physics, every computation needs at least a certain amount of energy. So if you want to do many computations today, you will have to use a certain amount of energy today. Now lets say, you have a machine that turns any matter into energy without any loss. You put in m mass and you get out e=mc^2 energy. Problem is: You cannot get more matter into that machine today then is around you in a radius of 24 light hours.

So that would be a hard limit.

But quantum computers have proven to break that limit. One theory is that using a quantum computer means using computers in an unlimited number of parallel universes. So there is no limit to the number of calculations you can do. (See David Deutsch and his theories about parallel universes)

I think there are theories about the limits of what a quantum computer can calculate. But I dont know them. Would be interesting to read about it if there is something published.

Then again, what might look like a "hard limit" today will probably not do so tomorrow. Some time ago the "lower limit on energy per calculation" sounded like a hard limit. Then quantum computers came along and blasted through it.

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by AnIrishDuck on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @10:48AM (#4876727)
> According to current theory of physics, every computation needs at least a certain amount of energy.

This is not, strictly speaking, true. You are talking, I believe, about Lanadauer's principle [1]. This states that it is the destruction of entropy that costs energy. There are computational methods that can theoretically avoid these energy losses [2]. In fact, Lanadaer theorized about reversible computing in his original paper [3].

Bremmerman's limit, mentioned below, is more applicable.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing 3. http://www.cc.gatech.edu/computing/nano/documents/Bennett%20...

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by Keyframe on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @09:53AM (#4876462)
Thanks for info. Also, I found somewhat of an answer for limits of computations I was looking for: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit rather fascinating!
Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by marshray on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @04:01PM (#4878555)
I read a reference someone posted somewhere once (sorry to not be more specific) that sounded pretty convincing.

Apparently it takes a minimum amount of energy to flip one bit in a conventional (non quantum) computer.

In order to brute force a 128 bit key, you'd need some sort of 128 bit register. Multiply the amount of energy needed per bit flip and the result implies there are never likley to be enough power plants on Earth to iterate through all the combinations (let alone perform the computations required to test the candidate key).

Hope this helps, perhaps this is enough for you to find the original reference.

Edit: perhaps it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle as mentioned below.

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by Keyframe on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @07:00PM (#4879409)
I'm mapping through all the concepts I need and try to grasp, at least, basic knowledge about it. It helps I'm math literate (to an extent), but I still have a long way to go before I have a believable premise (+ a magic/unknown factor to make an interesting story) before I contact an expert in information theory to make it even more believable. I suspect this will be the king of "nerd" movies, but I don't care - it's something I would watch, that is all that matters for that project.
Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by marshray on Thursday December 06, 2012 @11:59AM (#4882498)
I can't wait to see it!
Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by ErrantX on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @03:57AM (#4875501)
Absolutely; NTLM has been attackable for ages. Running on a Quad core machine it can be cracked in a reasonable amount of time.

The cost/time trade-off for such cracking makes this rig pointless for such cracking, unless you absolutely must have it in 6 minutes.

I don't see any other major use for this; it's simply not powerful enough to attack anything new (Edit: even with 128, rather than 25, GPU's).

Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by joshmaker on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @09:42AM (#4876405)
However, the length of the average password is probably closer to 8 chars (http://www.codelord.net/2011/06/18/statistics-of-62k-passwor...) at which point the time to crack a password drops to 84 minutes for SHA-1 and 30 minutes for MD5. Also if users aren't required to use uppercase or special characters, they probably won't (http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/74164/www2007.pdf), at which case things look a lot worse.
Re:New 25 GPU Monster Devours Passwords In Seconds by chubs on Wednesday December 05, 2012 @06:16AM (#4875792)
Glad to hear bcrypt is still safe; that's what i use for my apps.