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Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @01:40AM (#48394451)
Exactly, and thankfully those have been made based on natural experiments like the ones I shared. And the consensus among serious modern economists (not those making money on selling popular books) is that redistribution negatively affects economic growth with all else being equal
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by srean on Thursday June 04, 2026 @01:55AM (#48394568)
I would agree with your statement regarding politics that rests solely on wealth distribution of the populist kind. Wealth needs to be created so that one has something to add to everyone's bag.
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @02:05AM (#48394625)
And I agree that _some_ redistribution is necessary for a healthy society. But the cost of slowing growth must be weighted agaist it. And populist calls for "no billionaires" etc are going to be bad for all, including the poor, in the end
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by srean on Thursday June 04, 2026 @02:14AM (#48394687)
Almost in violent agreement.

Disagree about the billionaire bit. Accumulates too much power too narrowly. Then one can subvert the market and rule of law. It seems the line lies somewhere between a hundred million and billion dollars at the current value of a dollar.

I am happy and eager to make exceptions on a case by case basis if that billion dollars have been made in exchange of tangible goods and services.

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @02:31AM (#48394821)
I just see political influence as separate issue. Make sure they cannot lobby/donate (prison if they do) and problem solved.

Why being tangiable so important? E.g. a billionare made it on physical music CD cs one made it on music streaming? As long as it's legal, why prioritize physical form?

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by srean on Thursday June 04, 2026 @02:59AM (#48395058)
That's too naive. Laws work differently once you have billions of dollars. They can and will be bent and politicians will be too happy to do that for you. It's win win for both.

Ignoring this aspect of the way the world works is living in a fantasy world, no less fantastic than a communist utopia.

Oh! I chose my word poorly. Streaming is very much "tangible" in the sense I had intended. "No regret transaction" is perhaps a better term than tangible, for the notion I am trying poorly to capture.

Let's take Walter Bright. I would love him to be a billionaire if he isn't one already. He made many delightful "goods", (to entertain oneself with and also to pay one's bills writing programs in a language so pleasant *). No party in the transaction would regret such a transaction, even in hindsight.

There are legal ways to accumulate wealth, however, without exchanging any goods and services. For example, HFT (ought to be called low latency rather than high frequency), speculation on the stock marketd. Derivative markets, for example, are zero sum, for one to win someone else has to lose. The wealth accumulated by such means has not been created, merely redistributed.

* Wish more companies used D though, so that it's actually feasible to earn your keep writing in D.

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @11:40AM (#48400284)
How much bending is actually happening vs just hypotheticals thought? Elon Musk donated a lot and then suddenly Big Beautiful Bill hit Tesla very hard. Doesn't sound like he got a favor paid back. Also, not that we should emulate Russia (not at all) but since 2000s there any oligarch trying to do anything political goes to jail or "falls out of their window". So possible in principle to remove the influence (I don't approve of the method though).

Sure, HTF is zero sum. I just think that focus on it is excessive. 99.9% of businesses are not. Regret would be nice to include in consideration but I doubt one can reliably measure it in practice

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by srean on Thursday June 04, 2026 @12:47PM (#48401248)
Not just HFT, options market, futures market are all zero sum. They are massive.
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @02:14PM (#48402441)
How massive relative to everything else in the economy that is not zero sum? 1%?

Also, disagree on options and futures market. They do provide important economoc function of price discovery and insurance against risk

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by srean on Thursday June 04, 2026 @10:02PM (#48407101)
Much bigger than non-derivative stock market for sure.

"The derivatives market is, in a word, gigantic—often estimated at over $1 quadrillion". The stock market would be puny in comparison. This is quite well known so was quite surprised by your objection.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052715/how-big-deri...

The derivatives market is much larger than the stock market, both in sheer trading volume and total face value. While global stock markets represent a total value of roughly \(\$120\) trillion, the estimated notional value of the global derivatives market easily exceeds \(\$500\) trillion to \(\$1\) quadrillion.

https://share.google/aimode/EAEGnOouA5dvj9leC

Derivative markets are necessary for price discovery but when they tower over in volume over the market whose prices it was supposed to discover it is serving a purpose that towers over its justified/motivating purpose.

Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by saulapremium on Thursday June 04, 2026 @01:10PM (#48401558)
Elon Musk donated a lot of money and among many other things, his companies avoided investigations. The fact that neither Trump or Putin have any loyalty doesn't negate the fact that money buys you tremendous power.
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by crossbody on Thursday June 04, 2026 @03:09PM (#48403214)
It doesn't negate the influence gain, however the Putin and Trump examples show that this influence is often (very) limited and short lived, not "tremendous"
Re:American capitalism has taken an apocalyptic turn by saulapremium on Friday June 05, 2026 @06:04AM (#48410333)
Elon Musk, by his own words, would be in prison if the Democrats had won. It seems to me that he got exactly what he wanted.