The soviet union objectively wasn't communism though, they didn't claim they were either. They had the goal of developing communism, but failed

Even if we accept that, the millions dead and incalculable human suffering incurred by the attempts is more than reason enough to stop trying.

There was no greater cause of human suffering in the 20th century than the worldwide attempts to build communist governments.

Those are all either massively exaggerated, coincidental, or are painful side effects of revolution

If we stopped trying to build capitalism for the same reasons we'd all still be serfs

I don't know, trying to stop communism also accounts for a lot of human suffering

Honestly, this forum expects you to differentiate between socialism, communism, and the Soviet Union. Whatever your views might be.

Yes, that is what I mean.

The issue with communism is if it never happened for real you can imagine all sorts of good amazing things from it with 0 pushback. Look atleast at the states calming to be communist. Would you rather live in Soviet or Western Europe? Ask the balts and poles...

btw Sweden is not socialist

Why is that an issue? Would you like discourse to be less grounded in ideals? Or is it that these particular ideals are a harm disguised as benefit?

? Because then you can just make shit up to put it bluntly.

any idea anyones ever had comes down to that. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they need to be refined

But we can see what the best systems already are... Where do people want to live?

- western/nordic europe, japan, singapore, usa, canada