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Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by krupan on Monday May 04, 2026 @09:44AM (#48008684)
The math isn't that difficult once you grok mod math. It's like time, like doing addition and subtraction on a clock. What's 10 + 4 on a clock? 4 hours past 10 is 2.
Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by tptacek on Monday May 04, 2026 @11:43AM (#48010142)
The math stays difficult after basic discrete concepts and gets more difficult as you go. :)

It's straightforward to get yourself to a place where you can do cryptographic things and feel somewhat comfortable with what's happening. Truly understanding it to the point where you can reason safely about it is deceptively harder.

Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by mswphd on Monday May 04, 2026 @07:21PM (#48016238)
yeah I generally would say that learning about the actual schemes (tends to be) doable by a casual enthusiast, but learning about how the SOTA attacks work (which motivate scheme design for sure) is much more difficult.
Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by gucci-on-fleek on Monday May 04, 2026 @07:01PM (#48016080)
Hmm, I've studied a lot of math, and I disagree. Cryptography is mostly number theory, which always looks simple on the surface, and often only needs "elementary" tools, but I still find it much harder than other areas of math.

For example, the proof that there are infinitely many primes looks simple [0], but it's still pretty hard to understand, let alone derive yourself independently. And the other important cryptography/number theory theorems like Euler's totient theorem [1] are even trickier.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid%27s_theorem

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_theorem

Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by mswphd on Monday May 04, 2026 @08:10PM (#48016551)
yes, deriving all of the math cryptography depends on independently would not be easy. Fortunately, that's not really how anybody learns.

Along those lines, you do not need to understand the proof of Euler's totient theorem to understand cryptography. It is a distraction. All you need (at most) is to know that the result is true, and even then it's only fundamentally important for RSA, which you likely shouldn't bother learning about these days. RSA simultaneously

1. looks very simple (though the simple version is horrendously insecure), and 2. does not have particularly good performance, and 3. does not have particularly good security (either post or pre quantum), and 4. has been in the process of being phased out for quite some time now.

this is not a good combination of properties. The fact that cryptography textbooks cover it is mostly due to historical tradition. I would personally argue it is time to omit it from instruction materials.

Re:Why are neural networks and cryptographic ciphers so simi... by gucci-on-fleek on Tuesday May 05, 2026 @12:45AM (#48018138)
> Along those lines, you do not need to understand the proof of Euler's totient theorem to understand cryptography.

Well, I had to when I learned cryptography, but I learned it from a class offered by the math department, so I guess that's rather unsurprising :).

> even then it's only fundamentally important for RSA […] this is not a good combination of properties

Strong agree here.